US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

That is the company's argument. USAPA, OTOH, maintained at the hearing that it was ALL an internal ALPA process, arbitration included, and therefore non-binding on ALPA's successor.

The way I understood from reading the transcripts, Judge Silver identified that as the key legal question. Is the NIC binding or not? If she renders an unambiguous judgement on that important question, and if that judgement binds USAPA to the NIC, I, for one, am not inclined to pursue an appeal.

Time to fold em and focus on a joint contract. If I were an east pilot hired between '87 and '90, this would indeed be a very tough pill.

When you decide to fold, what will your plan be? What are you going to do to move this forward?

 

[luvthe9]

what is to vote on? and the west keeps spewing out of their mouths that the NIC is Fair,,,

the TA says until there is a JOINT CBA there is no NIC...

and if I have my way there never will be a JOINT CBA with the NIC.

That's the attitude of about everyone you talk to now, No NIC ever!!!!!

 

[Rookie Jr]

A320 Driver, always respect your posts on here.. Not saying that at all.. We are in a bad position... Mostly because of Team Tempe...

Wrong. You are in a bad position because of your actions during the past five years. Maybe when you people start accepting responsibility for your own actions your lot in life will improve.

 

[Move2CLT]

That's the attitude of about everyone you talk to now, No NIC ever!!!!!

BS 9-piece. They're done out east. The majority wants a new contract and they know the Nic comes with it.

Time to catch up, move on, or quit.

 

[Rookie Jr]

And there it is on full display - the AWA scumbag stealing jobs attitude.

Those jobs required to "bring the East up to" the West vacation level were originally taken from East pilots when their vacation was decimated using the AWA contract as the target. Under NIC they will all be transferred to AWA lowlifes.

The best part is these lowlifes have absolutely totally convinced themselves that this is their right. They think that 3400 East pilots are all just out in left field.

You have got to love it...

Boeing Driver

This doesn't even make sense. You are blaming the west because our vacation was the model for decimating your contract yet it is far superior to yours.

How is stating that it would take hiring more pilots to bring the east up to west vacation standards an indication of "stealing" east jobs?

Your bitterness is duly noted along with your stupidity.

Oh, yeah, when you finally have to work under the Nic you do not have to "transfer to AWA lowlifes". You can leave. There are always choices in life and it is apparent that you are not very good at making them.

 

[prechilill]

That's the attitude of about everyone you talk to now, No NIC ever!!!!!

Ok 9 piece, then why are you (plural) terrified of putting a contract up for a vote?
Get it?

 

[Move2CLT]

For you easties:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RSBFUCrfU0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.internettrashtalk.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

 

[Rookie Jr]

On the contrary. When the recall effort was underway to remove Cleary, where was the West pilot group? I challenged several of you on this and was told that it was your way of punishing USAPA and the East pilot group by keeping them tied to questionable leadership. Do you not know that with your help the whole leadership structure could have been replaced? But your group, the mini union which is AOL, sat on the sidelines hoping something bad would happen. Well, it did.

Driver...

It is better the devil you know than one you don't . Cleary's actions are what puts the west ahead in this little war we're having. His utter stupidity, enhanced only by his arrogance is running ucrapa into the ground and for that the west is thankful.

We don't want to help the east elect a worthy president who could possibly make progress in harming us.

AOL sitting on the sidelines hoping something bad will happen? Its only purpose is to defend the Nicolau decision. Nothing could be worse than what has been happening for the past five years.

 

[Move2CLT]

Interesting too, in addition to MM, Mikey, and Claxon disappearing, how 9-piece puts up a post with no substance or thought to it and the leaves.

I don't think he even believes what he posts anymore.

 

[Move2CLT]

On the contrary. When the recall effort was underway to remove Cleary, where was the West pilot group? I challenged several of you on this and was told that it was your way of punishing USAPA and the East pilot group by keeping them tied to questionable leadership. Do you not know that with your help the whole leadership structure could have been replaced? But your group, the mini union which is AOL, sat on the sidelines hoping something bad would happen. Well, it did.

Driver...

The west was just hanging.

Did you expect anything else? Just what do you think would have replaced the current leadership structure?

I'll give you a hint - another eastie who wants either DOH or concessions. Both those are non-starters and we'd be in the same position as now.

Cleary is doing more for us than we could ever do and I will be voting for him again.

And bad is a matter of opinion. For us, it doesn't get any better than this.

How do you like your union so far?

 

[Code Name V]

BS 9-piece. They're done out east. The majority wants a new contract and they know the Nic comes with it.

Time to catch up, move on, or quit.

Sorry Charlie,

You may think you won something here or that Silver will somehow impose the Nic but you are no closer than you ever were. Even if you are correct and a vote would pass, you wouldn't see it for years and years and years. By then, so many will have upgraded that you will have nowhere to go. You may think you won some victory but what your limited mind cannot see is that the greatest way to unify a people is to have an attack on your own soil. Nicalou was an attack, Wake was an attack, and Kasher was THE attack.

The anger that resulted in tossing ALPA is nothing in comparison to what is happening right now. So go ahead and gloat. You will be your own worst enemy. The resultant escalated hatred towards you and the company will prevent any future merger as there isn't a management company out there that would come within light years of dealing with this polarized group. In the end, if DUI Doug wants a merger he will have to either sell you off or convince a partner that there won't be a meltdown.

I also wonder how you think a vote is even in the making? News flash, Einstein; you can't vote without a complete contract and they are years and years from having one. Even then what makes you think that the NAC would even send it out to vote with their view of the Nic and the fact that the head of the NAC would be one of the ones hardest hit? Even then, should Dougweiser even make an offer that comes close to acceptable, it would then have to pass the BPR just to go to vote. With the current stance on DOH and no alteration in the bylaws, and their determination of an industry standard contract, that is not likely. On top of it all, should the Nic be forced into consideration, you can expect a complete reversal of the NAC and how and what they negotiate for. By the time it ever made it to vote, those that think the Nic would give them the windfall they believe they deserve will be sadly disappointed that they waited so long for so little.

But hang in there and keep those donations coming. Since I think it is likely that we will be back to the Ninth again and You will be back to the SCOTUS, everyone is going to need funds, so please keep those donations coming and keep your union dues paid up. We need them to continue the ongoing fight against you. You are quick to remind us how much more you make. Good for you as you will need them to support two competing attorneys.

In addition, regardless of what you may believe, most here continue to understand the meaning of a fight to the death. There will be no capitulation. One of us will become a casualty of war and it is pretty hard to overcome the majority. My bet will remain on the East.

You think the fight is over. I see it as just beginning and it just got a big reinforcement. Get ready. Once the shock of Kasher is over, this group will pick up the fight with a vigor you have yet to witness.

V

 

[Piedmont1984]

The NIC is NOT fair.

But, the NIC is LEGAL.

The NIC was the risk we took when we individually and collectively placed our bets and instructed our FELLOW pilots on the Merger Committee to go out and get DOH and don't come home without it.

And, (unless by some miracle what happens with the MDA DFR affects the legality of the NIC) we will soon find out if we are bound by it.

Ethically, I think we have been bound by it all along... if we are honest with ourselves. But in the passion of the moment, we couldn't resist a possible legal loophole. I went for it as well.

When that loophole finally closes, I intend to move on and let it go. It's the sane and rational thing to do.

And we have other battles to fight.

 

[Move2CLT]

The NIC is NOT fair.

But, the NIC is LEGAL.

The NIC was the risk we took when we individually and collectively placed our bets and instructed our FELLOW pilots on the Merger Committee to go out and get DOH and don't come home without it.

And, (unless by some miracle what happens with the MDA DFR affects the legality of the NIC) we will soon find out if we are bound by it.

Ethically, I think we have been bound by it all along... if we are honest with ourselves. But in the passion of the moment, we couldn't resist a possible legal loophole. I went for it as well.

When that loophole finally closes, I intend to move on and let it go. It's the sane and rational thing to do.

And we have other battles to fight.

The Nic is not fair in only your minds.

And you have to stop with this MDA crap. That is going to be a monetary award at the most and the chances of that happening are none to none. Its already been discussed that MDA has zero impact on the Nic award.

The loopholes closed long ago. You need to move on.

 

[Move2CLT]

Sorry Charlie,

You may think you won something here or that Silver will somehow impose the Nic but you are no closer than you ever were. Even if you are correct and a vote would pass, you wouldn't see it for years and years and years. By then, so many will have upgraded that you will have nowhere to go. You may think you won some victory but what your limited mind cannot see is that the greatest way to unify a people is to have an attack on your own soil. Nicalou was an attack, Wake was an attack, and Kasher was THE attack.

The anger that resulted in tossing ALPA is nothing in comparison to what is happening right now. So go ahead and gloat. You will be your own worst enemy. The resultant escalated hatred towards you and the company will prevent any future merger as there isn't a management company out there that would come within light years of dealing with this polarized group. In the end, if DUI Doug wants a merger he will have to either sell you off or convince a partner that there won't be a meltdown.

I also wonder how you think a vote is even in the making? News flash, Einstein; you can't vote without a complete contract and they are years and years from having one. Even then what makes you think that the NAC would even send it out to vote with their view of the Nic and the fact that the head of the NAC would be one of the ones hardest hit? Even then, should Dougweiser even make an offer that comes close to acceptable, it would then have to pass the BPR just to go to vote. With the current stance on DOH and no alteration in the bylaws, and their determination of an industry standard contract, that is not likely. On top of it all, should the Nic be forced into consideration, you can expect a complete reversal of the NAC and how and what they negotiate for. By the time it ever made it to vote, those that think the Nic would give them the windfall they believe they deserve will be sadly disappointed that they waited so long for so little.

But hang in there and keep those donations coming. Since I think it is likely that we will be back to the Ninth again and You will be back to the SCOTUS, everyone is going to need funds, so please keep those donations coming and keep your union dues paid up. We need them to continue the ongoing fight against you. You are quick to remind us how much more you make. Good for you as you will need them to support two competing attorneys.

In addition, regardless of what you may believe, most here continue to understand the meaning of a fight to the death. There will be no capitulation. One of us will become a casualty of war and it is pretty hard to overcome the majority. My bet will remain on the East.

You think the fight is over. I see it as just beginning and it just got a big reinforcement. Get ready. Once the shock of Kasher is over, this group will pick up the fight with a vigor you have yet to witness.

V

Six paragraphs of BS.

The fight is over. Look at your fellow posters here on this board - they're done. Many out east have had enough. You won't go to SCOTUS. The appeal won't go anywhere.

All those upgrades you think are coming aren't.

You may want to fight to the death, but the majority out east have had it.

You need to start thinking about your employment here and whether or not you want to continue.

The Nic is coming.

 

[biggie smalls]

For you easties:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RSBFUCrfU0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.internettrashtalk.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

Well how about this...

You know what to do gents.
****************************************


US AIRWAYS PILOTS TO HAVE SENIORITY GUTTED IN AMERICAN MERGER
KIRBY PLUS THREE PERCENT ADDS SALT TO THE WOUND


Pay very close attention to this headline because it may very well come to pass if certain political zealots have their way. The rabble rousers in question, Dave Ciabattoni, Eric Rowe, Woody Manear, Doug Mowery (behind the scenes for more than one reason), et al, have been singularly focused from the outset on crippling the efforts of USAPA President Mike Cleary and Vice President Randy Mowrey.


Each of them has had some involvement with the union and each of them has rejected the consensus of the BPR, remaining convinced that their individual thinking is superior to the body and to the will of the pilots. Each of them in turn quit or failed in one form or another in a fit of righteous indignation. This stubborn refusal to work as a team is an ironic hallmark given the ferocity with which they are attacking your elected officials, like a pack of rabid wolves.


It is clear that, while the democratic process left them flaccid in the face of the differing opinion expressed by the elected body, the political opportunism associated with the upcoming officer elections is arousing primitive instincts within them. These instincts while unsavory to say the least are unfortunately dangerously effective if not tempered by the voice of reason. These men have taken tabloid journalism to embarrassingly new heights in a shameless attempt to seize control of the union in the upcoming elections.


The accusations which they continue to hatch with reckless abandon not only show how unscrupulous they are but also show how ridiculously out of touch they are with the seriousness of the issues we are about to face. The absurd notion that we should have our attention diverted by stories of sordid affairs or by tales of fantom emails when we are on the precipice of potential career-changing events truly boggles the mind.


The recent AMR bankruptcy filing is an almost certain precursor to a merger attempt by team Tempe. The myriad of issues that will come our way represent, at the same time, great risk and great opportunity. It likely has never been as important as it is now to remain focused and to remain unified behind a common purpose.


Understand that when the balloon goes up, probably right in the middle of the officer elections, things are going to move very quickly. We cannot afford to be in the middle of changing horses, especially when we know what the other breed represents. A quote from a notable negotiating committee member of the past comes to mind. Having caved in on the no furlough clause placing the threshold just below himself he stated that “we didn’t give up the no furlough clause, we just moved the bar.” When it comes to your livelihood where do you want the “bar” to be and who do you want making the decision?


What the Compass Correction and Unbiased Facts folks want you to believe is that they have an untried answer to the frustratingly difficult struggle for a fair seniority list and a fair contract. Take a very close look at the names of these gentlemen and the documents that bear many of their signatures. The answer that they are peddling can be found in the evidence offered by this undeniable record. Their proposed path is anything but untried, the effects of which are painful reminders of how terribly flawed it is.


What hasn’t been tried, at least not in recent history, is what we are doing now. Namely we are not shrinking in the face of adversity, we are not resigning ourselves to concession for lack of resolve and we are not buying into the notion that we are any less deserving than our peers. What we are doing is standing up for ourselves - finally!


Do not fall victim to the party line being fed to you by those ruthlessly seeking to gain power. Do not allow them to exploit you by playing on your frustration with the protracted nature of our fight. It is the very same tactic being used by Management.


There are only two choices available to us because there is no middle ground with this management, either we stay the course and continue to stand up for ourselves or we sell each other out in a mad scramble for leftovers. It is almost poetic that the political choices before you so perfectly represent these two options.


As the potential for a merger unfolds Management is going to be fully engaged in the work of putting together the financial arrangements necessary to consummate a deal. As evidenced by their actions during the UAL attempt the USAPA leadership will have the opportunity to be instrumentally involved in the process by way of certain contractual provisions at their disposal.


The current leadership has unique insight into these provisions and has been diligently preparing to take maximum advantage of the leverage they represent. They have also, during the UAL attempt, demonstrated remarkable discipline. Where they may have been tempted to negotiate directly with Parker they instead remained professional and non-committal, allowing for the BPR to deliberate over the matter unencumbered. In fact, the entire USAPA mechanism, roughly as it exists today, performed in a very disciplined fashion.


Make no mistake that Management, both ours and that at American, as well as the APA will be paying close attention to see what breed of leadership we have at USAPA, those who have a proven record of discipline and undying resolve or those who have a different record altogether. Think of some of the names mentioned above once again, it may conjure images of men falling over themselves, sacrificing anything or anyone to preserve the salvation that a merger represents to them. Perhaps we should elect Chip Munn as president.


Think about this boys