US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

......disregard, I was thinking something else

rrr

 

[Code Name V]

Said the east guy.

No wonder the industry doesn't think much of you guys.

And you give everything away too. You are your own worst enemies and we out west will make sure Cleary keeps you moving in the right direction.

Merry Christmas! LMAO.

And enjoy it while you can. More bad news for you guys just after the new year.

Don't get your panties too wet yet. The bad news will just mean more delay. How long do you estimate another trip to the ninth and the SCOTUS? It's coming, just wait for it. On the other hand, I understand that AMR has had an opportunity to digest just what the Nic would mean to them and they aren't too keen. Maybe you better start educating them now.

V

 

[cactusboy53]

Don't get your panties too wet yet. The bad news will just mean more delay. How long do you estimate another trip to the ninth and the SCOTUS? It's coming, just wait for it. On the other hand, I understand that AMR has had an opportunity to digest just what the Nic would mean to them and they aren't too keen. Maybe you better start educating them now.

V

Ahhhh, MORE revisionist history. Just EXACTLY how on earth would mean to the AA pilots, and pray tell why they aren't too keen on it? Did you personally have a meeting with the APA? Did they tell you how badly you were cheated in the Nic, and how they were going to make it all better for you with a combined seniority list??

BTW, did you know that SCOTUS only listens to a SMALL percentage of the cases sent to them? You got lucky the last time you asked the Ninth to intervene, but let's face it. All the Ninth did was "punt" the ball by stating the case was NOT YET RIPE (but would MOST ASSUREDLY BE if anything other than the Nic was used).

You sir are a funny, but totally uneducated man.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't get your panties too wet yet. The bad news will just mean more delay. How long do you estimate another trip to the ninth and the SCOTUS? It's coming, just wait for it. On the other hand, I understand that AMR has had an opportunity to digest just what the Nic would mean to them and they aren't too keen. Maybe you better start educating them now.

V

Why do you guys keep thinking that the ninth or SCOTUS is going to be you savior? Do you believe your case is so weak that you are going to lose again? That once again you need a second try. Judge silver is going to issue a legal opinion. There is no injunction like last time. There is no limiting of rights. So if/when judge Silver tells the company they they can be sued for using something other than the Nicolau and will lose the case. We are done. End of story.

What is the ninth going to say? The company might not be liable? Once Parker has cover from a court he is not going to care what the ninth says. He needs to get a deal done and he is not going to wait around another year. He is going to blame the court and say sorry boys wish I could help. There will nothing for the ninth to reverse. It is a legal opinion not an injunction.

You are going to have to explain to me why AA would care what the Nicolau looks like? They are never going to accept DOH so put that out of your mind. To the AA pilots it is just number on a list.Why would they care if you were senior to me or I was senior to you on a merged list? We will bring so many airplane, so many captains and so many f/o's. You east guys are the only ones in the industry that think the Nicolau is unworkable.

So explain why is AA not so keen on the nicolau?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Don't get your panties too wet yet. The bad news will just mean more delay. How long do you estimate another trip to the ninth and the SCOTUS? It's coming, just wait for it. On the other hand, I understand that AMR has had an opportunity to digest just what the Nic would mean to them and they aren't too keen. Maybe you better start educating them now.

V

Keep waiting out in the cold dark night for the Great Pumpkin, this time he will come and he will fix all your problems, this time for sure!!!

 

[nic4us]

All true. The company is pulling anything they can with the west, because they know that USAPA is the un-union. I was only commenting on V's revisionist history of how the new US Airways is screwing them because they still work under LOA93 with no end in sight.

BTW, the company is keeping what B737 airframes on "property" until all the A321's (that make just the fleet minimum) arrive. The remaining Airbus' should be here within this month.

The dues issue is unfortunately one that is a legal quagmire: USAPA is legally entitled to the dues under the law. The company under penalty of law must fire anyone USAPA says is not paying dues to the "union". By bare technical definition we are represented. These conditions will not change until enough East pilots are fed up the USAPA and its antics. There is a National Officer election coming up. We'll see who runs, and we will see what happens.

My request: If you are not a member in good standing, please do what ever you need to now so that you can vote and participate.

Well, as long as the West maintains min block hours I guess it is no harm no foul,,,but, I think this is could be another violation of the TA.

I believe the language in the TA is "operate",,,could be wrong though, don't have a TA in front of me.

 

[Move2CLT]

Don't get your panties too wet yet. The bad news will just mean more delay. How long do you estimate another trip to the ninth and the SCOTUS? It's coming, just wait for it. On the other hand, I understand that AMR has had an opportunity to digest just what the Nic would mean to them and they aren't too keen. Maybe you better start educating them now.

V

This upcoming news is outside of the ongoing litigation.

And SCOTUS? Please.

 

[A320 Driver]

OK, then you agree that USAPA can't simply delay presenting a contract to vote on so that a few more east pilots can get the upgrades, etc. that Nicolau felt they were not entitled to. USAPA cannot have DOH as a foundation of their constitution as it substantially biases the benefits of the union in the favor of one side at the expense of the other. They can back away from DOH, honor the arbitration and serve all the pilots, or it must go away.

Actually, I would prefer it went away and IBT took over. Now, as far as USAPA delaying the contract, do you EVER read the negotiating reports? Do you EVER listen to Doug talk about the fact that there is no reason to be in a rush to get a contract? You act as if USAPA is holding something back from you in negotiations...I don't see it. I see the company rebuffing every proposal that is thrown at them. I see union negotiators softening their position to try to get things going. It is not working. When will you open your eyes and see this company DOES NOT WANT a contract. It costs them money and gives them practically nothing in return.

Now, as far as the NIC is concerned, hopefully, Judge Silver will have an answer for us in March. She has asked the KEY question. Is it LEGAL for USAPA to set aside the NIC? If it is, it is up for negotiation...you lose. If it is not...checkmate. USAPA will have to accept the NIC and change their bylaws (or not). I can see where the NIC is court imposed and it makes no difference what the bylaws say. But, that is my opinion.

You wanted this showdown in court and now you have it. This thing will be settled soon one way or the other. I respect the way Judge Silver is managing the proceedings. It is completely different from the biased way Judge Wake handled it. Whatever she decides will have the backing of legal precedent. THEN, who will you blame for the slow pace of negotiations?

This board is representative of the way we regard each other as a pilot group. Two kids on a playground throwing dirt at each other. It will not get us a contract as long as you side with the company against the East pilot group.

Driver...

 

[Code Name V]

This upcoming news is outside of the ongoing litigation.

And SCOTUS? Please.

It's you who will need the SCOTUS...Groundhog day....

V

 

[Metroyet]

Judge Silver will have an answer for us in March. She has asked the KEY question. Is it LEGAL for USAPA to set aside the NIC? If it is, it is up for negotiation...you lose.

Driver...

Unbelievable! You STILL don't understand even the most basic fundamentals?! The DJ isn't about USAPA at all. The question is, "will the company be held liable if they accept a non nic list which arbitrarily alters the Transition Agreement which was already found t be a dfr"

USAPA isn't running anything here. They're a defendant.

 

[Code Name V]

Why do you guys keep thinking that the ninth or SCOTUS is going to be you savior? Do you believe your case is so weak that you are going to lose again? That once again you need a second try. Judge silver is going to issue a legal opinion. There is no injunction like last time. There is no limiting of rights. So if/when judge Silver tells the company they they can be sued for using something other than the Nicolau and will lose the case. We are done. End of story.

What is the ninth going to say? The company might not be liable? Once Parker has cover from a court he is not going to care what the ninth says. He needs to get a deal done and he is not going to wait around another year. He is going to blame the court and say sorry boys wish I could help. There will nothing for the ninth to reverse. It is a legal opinion not an injunction.

You are going to have to explain to me why AA would care what the Nicolau looks like? They are never going to accept DOH so put that out of your mind. To the AA pilots it is just number on a list.Why would they care if you were senior to me or I was senior to you on a merged list? We will bring so many airplane, so many captains and so many f/o's. You east guys are the only ones in the industry that think the Nicolau is unworkable.

So explain why is AA not so keen on the nicolau?

The fact that you need an explanation for the obvious is quite telling for a group so quick to blame and accuse. Of course, the line pilot attorneys on this board have shown remarkable insight, intellect, and maturity....

In regards Silver. You indicate she will have an absolute ruling. No questions asked. So if and when she says that the union has to accept something that opposes their bylaws; is she not saying that a union has no right to make up their own rules and negotiate in accordance with their own constitution? And you think this does not violate or in no way interferes with the RLA? You love to repeat that the 9th 'only' said 'not ripe'. Why not reread the entire ruling. I am sure that Silver has read it over and over again while she tries to find a wording that would allow her to accomplish her goals while not violating the ruling. Not an easy task but one that is likely not absolute and if necessary the 9th will have the opportunity to review it as well. Then you can take it up to the next level once again.

As far as AMR; you are correct. I have not spoken with every pilot or done a survey. However, the ones that I did talk to oppose the Nic for the same reason the the East opposes it. Because it is blatantly unfair, regardless of the west spin. They don't want to be incorporated with a list that puts junior punks ahead of them any more than we do. Duh!

V

 

[A320 Driver]

Unbelievable! You STILL don't understand even the most basic fundamentals?! The DJ isn't about USAPA at all. The question is, "will the company be held liable if they accept a non nic list which arbitrarily alters the Transition Agreement which was already found t be a dfr"

USAPA isn't running anything here. They're a defendant.

Go back and read the transcripts.

Driver...

 

[nevergiveup]

Will she overrule the ninth? Can she overrule the ninth?

 

[nic4us]

The fact that you need an explanation for the obvious is quite telling for a group so quick to blame and accuse. Of course, the line pilot attorneys on this board have shown remarkable insight, intellect, and maturity....

In regards Silver. You indicate she will have an absolute ruling. No questions asked. So if and when she says that the union has to accept something that opposes their bylaws; is she not saying that a union has no right to make up their own rules and negotiate in accordance with their own constitution? And you think this does not violate or in no way interferes with the RLA? You love to repeat that the 9th 'only' said 'not ripe'. Why not reread the entire ruling. I am sure that Silver has read it over and over again while she tries to find a wording that would allow her to accomplish her goals while not violating the ruling. Not an easy task but one that is likely not absolute and if necessary the 9th will have the opportunity to review it as well. Then you can take it up to the next level once again.

As far as AMR; you are correct. I have not spoken with every pilot or done a survey. However, the ones that I did talk to oppose the Nic for the same reason the the East opposes it. Because it is blatantly unfair, regardless of the west spin. They don't want to be incorporated with a list that puts junior punks ahead of them any more than we do. Duh!

V

Whether the DFR is written into the bylaws or not is immaterial to the RLA. Seeham's plan was totally flawed, and it was pointed out to the usapa founders from the beginning.

A ruling from Silver that a non-Nic violates usapa's DFR to the West affirms the RLA. So, Silver would not be saying usapa has no right to make up their own rules and negotiate according to their own constitution, she would be saying that a union's C&BLs are in no way immune from the RLA and a union's DFR to its members. In other words, a union cannot be founded with the purpose of violating its DFR. What was it that Prater said? "what kind of union is founded to harm its own membership"? The answere to Prater's question is....an illegal one, in violation of the RLA.

Now, having said all of that, I am not holding my breath waiting for Silver to rule in an absolute manner. She may very well tell the company that a non-Nic is not necessarily a violation, and that usapa has the right to persue what it believes is in the best interest of its membership, even if that appears on the surface, and reinforced with a jury verdict, to be a violation. She will likely however, remind both the company and particularly usapa of the 9th's findings in Addington, leaving usapa "free to negotiate for ALL LCC pilots, with the PAIN of an unquestionably ripe DFR" looming if a non-Nic is ever ratified.

I do hope she also points out to the company that the RLA allows employees to sue in federal court, and grants the courts the ability to award reinstatement and backpay, along with other forms of equitable relief. BTW, damages started in 2008.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Will she overrule the ninth? Can she overrule the ninth?

Will she? I don't believe so. That requires an understanding of what the 9th ruled. The only ruling by the 9th said that the Addington suit was not ripe for judicial adjudication. Silver is not retrying the Addington so she can pretty much rule on the DJ any way she wants. She could even rule that USAPA getting it's list into a ratified contract would be a DFR violation - she just can't say that attempting to do so IS a DFR violation since that issue isn't ripe yet per the 9th's ruling.

Can she? Obviously she can NOT overrule the not ripe ruling of the 9th - she can't retry the Addington and proclaim USAPA guilty of a DFR since there's not a ratified contract. Anything other than that is fair game.

Jim