US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

Will she overrule the ninth? Can she overrule the ninth?

No, Silver cannot "overrule" the 9th.

But, all the 9th said was "not ripe".

Further, the 9th in their lets kick this can down the road shortsighted ruling did make one thing abundantly clear.

usapa has a DFR to the entire class it represents.

100% of that class entered into a binding arbitration agreement. There is no other logical conclusion than if usapa is going to represent the class, they have to defend the arbitration entered into by its members.

 

[cactusboy53]

Will she overrule the ninth? Can she overrule the ninth?

You know, you wouldn't ask STUPID questions like that if you would take the time to read all of the arbitration and court transcripts. If knowledge is TNT, you sir don't have enough to blow your nose.

 

[aquagreen73s]

BoeingBoy and Nic are dead on, but what they're not mentioning is the fact that Silver doesn't even have to touch the DFR issue at all. She could, and Nic and BB have explained why, but I don't think she needs to go there nor do I think she will. All that's going to come out of the DJ (IMO) is she will tell the company they are married to the contract they signed (the T/A) and the language is pretty darn clear about which seniority list to use. Deviate from that and you, company, and totally on your own. Stay with it and that is your (company) safe harbor. Stay with it and it is NOT a violation of Sect. 2 of the RLA (ie no case for USAPA to claim bad faith bargaining by the company to insist on the arbitrated result). Done. Very narrow and very clear and absolutely appeal proof. Any ruling more than this, then I"m thinking it's tough to fit in a summary judgment. What I've outlined is strictly a matter of law: T/A + Section2 of the RLA requires good faith bargaining + USAPA wants to use non-Nic + Hybrid DFR legal theory = what do we (company) do? That's the DJ question, and the answer is pretty clear = as a matter of law, if you (company) don't want to be sued, then stick with the arbitrated result otherwise I (Judge Silver) can't help you. Good luck.

 

[prechilill]

You know, you wouldn't ask STUPID questions like that if you would take the time to read all of the arbitration and court transcripts. If knowledge is TNT, you sir don't have enough to blow your nose.

CB, these guys on here are jihadists- they do not read anything of value except Cleary and Seham propaganda as evidenced by the poster you responded to. Look at Driver's post a little before that one, these guys are clueless about anything of substance with Addington, the 9th (ripeness vs merit) from the DJ- they understand nothing. I mean, these guys were mostly surprised about Loa93, to me that says everything.

 

[cleardirect]

The fact that you need an explanation for the obvious is quite telling for a group so quick to blame and accuse. Of course, the line pilot attorneys on this board have shown remarkable insight, intellect, and maturity....

In regards Silver. You indicate she will have an absolute ruling. No questions asked. So if and when she says that the union has to accept something that opposes their bylaws; is she not saying that a union has no right to make up their own rules and negotiate in accordance with their own constitution? And you think this does not violate or in no way interferes with the RLA? You love to repeat that the 9th 'only' said 'not ripe'. Why not reread the entire ruling. I am sure that Silver has read it over and over again while she tries to find a wording that would allow her to accomplish her goals while not violating the ruling. Not an easy task but one that is likely not absolute and if necessary the 9th will have the opportunity to review it as well. Then you can take it up to the next level once again.

As far as AMR; you are correct. I have not spoken with every pilot or done a survey. However, the ones that I did talk to oppose the Nic for the same reason the the East opposes it. Because it is blatantly unfair, regardless of the west spin. They don't want to be incorporated with a list that puts junior punks ahead of them any more than we do. Duh!

V

Talk about needing an explanation. I suggest that you go back and listen to the hearing from the ninth. Judge Graber asked Seham if a union could write a C&BL that put all women at the bottom of the list. After sputtering a bit Seham admitted that a union can ignore it's own C&BL. So no a union cannot just make up it's own rules and ignore state or federal law. If usapa put in it's C&BL that they would be the highest paid pilots in the world could we vote on a contract that did not make us the highest paid pilots in the world? Would it violate the C&BL if we passed a contract where we were not the highest paid pilots in the world? Remember DOH is an objective not a requirement. Also just like being the highest paid pilots in the world seniority has to be negotiated not imposed on the company.

What is the ninth going to review? Just the judges legal opinion. She is not imposing anything or restricting any ones rights. She will simply tell the company if you use anything other than the Nicolau we will get sued and you will lose. That is all the company needs to never negotiate for anything other than Nicolau. usapa can't get the company to negotiate crew meals how are they going to get the company to change their mind over something that will cost them millions from a court case?

Just like in school you need to show your work why the AA pilots are not "keen" on the Nicolau list. You had better think about what you say. Do you really think that the AA pilot agree with the east the list is unfair. This is from a group of pilots that thought it was fair to put 767 captain junior to new hires, staple most of the TWA list and furlough long time TWA pilots in favor of new hires. You better rethink what is fair. You also need to rethink your definition of junior.Being a captain is senior to a furloughed pilots at an airline in the world.

Plus you had better look at your own list. DOH will not fly at AA either. There is no way the AA pilots that stapled most of TWA with 1996 hire date below 2001 new hires is going to accept a junior reserve F/O 1990 hire senior to their 1992 captains. No the Nicolau will work just fine for them. The fight is going to be how far down their list their are going to push before the first us airways pilot appears. The AA pilots are not going to care if the first captain was hired in 1970-1980-1990 or 2000. They are going to care what happens to their furloughed pilots. You guys willing to give the AA pilot full DOH rights to the list? Before you answer do some research into what that means.

Also being in BK they are probably going to have even more pilots furloughed. How about 2000 furloughed pilots senior to the east new hires? Willing to throw those guys under the bus? The same guys you need to vote with you against a Nicolau contract?

Show your work why the AA pilot don't like the Nicolau other than your dislike for the list.

 

[A320 Driver]

CB, these guys on here are jihadists- they do not read anything of value except Cleary and Seham propaganda as evidenced by the poster you responded to. Look at Driver's post a little before that one, these guys are clueless about anything of substance with Addington, the 9th (ripeness vs merit) from the DJ- they understand nothing. I mean, these guys were mostly surprised about Loa93, to me that says everything.

LOL!!!!!
And YOU are overly dramatic!

Driver

 

[Move2CLT]

Will she? I don't believe so. That requires an understanding of what the 9th ruled. The only ruling by the 9th said that the Addington suit was not ripe for judicial adjudication. Silver is not retrying the Addington so she can pretty much rule on the DJ any way she wants. She could even rule that USAPA getting it's list into a ratified contract would be a DFR violation - she just can't say that attempting to do so IS a DFR violation since that issue isn't ripe yet per the 9th's ruling.

Can she? Obviously she can NOT overrule the not ripe ruling of the 9th - she can't retry the Addington and proclaim USAPA guilty of a DFR since there's not a ratified contract. Anything other than that is fair game.

Jim

Wow easties, there is that ripeness v merit thing again.

Sinking in yet?

 

[prechilill]

LOL!!!!!
And YOU are overly dramatic!

Driver

? Driver, I meant no disrespect. Your posts simply highlight little understanding of our legal proceedings and that is probably the biggest reason you are on Loa93 today and will be for quite a long time. As the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water..."

This is your union, all committees are headed and controlled by east pilots.

 

[A320 Driver]

This is your union, all committees are headed and controlled by east pilots.

Your choice...you have a big enough block to make a change and you choose not to. All your committee members QUIT!
Frankly, I don't think you people WANT change. As long as you can play the victim, the better chance you think you have in court of having a payday. This is my theory because I can't understand any other reason for your inaction.

As far as the proceedings, I'm just not inclined to spend my day off going through the transcripts again where Judge Silver discribes an overideing legal question that must be answered before anything else can happen. Look it up...it's at the end somewhere.


Driver...

 

[nevergiveup]

You know, you wouldn't ask STUPID questions like that if you would take the time to read all of the arbitration and court transcripts. If knowledge is TNT, you sir don't have enough to blow your nose.

Opps...sorry...thought your shirt was my handkerchief!

 

[nevergiveup]

No, Silver cannot "overrule" the 9th.

But, all the 9th said was "not ripe".

Further, the 9th in their lets kick this can down the road shortsighted ruling did make one thing abundantly clear.

usapa has a DFR to the entire class it represents.

100% of that class entered into a binding arbitration agreement. There is no other logical conclusion than if usapa is going to represent the class, they have to defend the arbitration entered into by its members.

So what then does the part about USAPA being able to use something else mean?

 

[Move2CLT]

Your choice...you have a big enough block to make a change and you choose not to. All your committee members QUIT!

That's incorrect. They were REMOVED by Cleary.

Frankly, I don't think you people WANT change. As long as you can play the victim, the better chance you think you have in court of having a payday. This is my theory because I can't understand any other reason for your inaction.

Change to what? Another shmuck who wants DOH? The last two east pilots touting "change" all had DOH as part of their platform. Exactly what change is that?

And we are, by no means, playing victim. Its you guys playing the victim card constantly and it pathetic. If its not the company, its Nicolau, Glass, the West pilots, AoL, etc. that are keeping you down.

So we've been very active and keeping Cleary, for us, is the best proactive move we can make. He polarizes your group and keeps you so weak that you can't do anything. And add to that Cleary's own Napoleon complex and you've got an internally destructive force.

As far as the proceedings, I'm just not inclined to spend my day off going through the transcripts again where Judge Silver discribes an overideing legal question that must be answered before anything else can happen. Look it up...it's at the end somewhere.

Gee, you can't spend a few minutes reading a handful of pages so you can make informed commentary on these boards? Instead you prefer to post from inneundo and emotion.

Explains alot as to why USAPA is on property and Cleary is running the show.

Great work lemming.

 

[Move2CLT]

So what then does the part about USAPA being able to use something else mean?

Seriously?

 

[nevergiveup]

Seriously?

Can you answer the question?

 

[Move2CLT]

Can you answer the question?

Do you realize how many times that has been answered on these boards? How many times the transcripts have been quoted?

No, make the effort. Quit being a lazy eastie.

As I've stated before, by putting in a little effort researching things, you may stumble upon other truths as well.

Its for your own good that you do it on your own.