US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Well since it depends on who you ask maybe we need a third-party neutral arbitrator to decide how to handle the guys who weren't fully on active status and yet not fully on a furloughed status. Once that arbitrator decides, then there really should be no question or doubt remaining about how they should be handled going forward. Agreed?

Agreed. I've said before, many times, that my opinion doesn't matter but you guys keep bringing it up trying to convince us
of the fairness. That will never happen. About 10 pages on here just because I countered aqua on his "the east got a marginally better relative position statement". I even agreed with him, I just said it didn't paint the whole picture. I showed you why I said that and all they usual villagers get their panties in a wad.

 

[Pi brat]

However, there is a difference between facts being sent by an unsigned source and then an opinion or insults being sent by an unsigned source. I could care less if a person signs their name to factual information.

By the way, would you care to send me a PM with your name?

Most of what you post from them(you?) are not FACTS! They are questions asked to stir the #$%^. I have no problem when they really are facts, but that is rare.

If you really want to know, yeah I will send it to you.

 

[Pi brat]

Swellblog article:

"US AIRWAYS

Four months earlier, inside of court protection, US Airways in its first filing asked for $950 million in labor relief per year on a total labor bill of $4 billion. This was US Airways’ first bite at the labor apple as the company quickly emerged from bankruptcy number one and filed again in 2004 where a subsequent $800 million in concessions were granted. By the time US Airways emerged from its second bankruptcy and was being merged with America West, the company was half its size in terms of employees and its payroll was 58 percent smaller."


NOTE to PI Brat: We (west) aren't paying for your 42% reduction, all of which happened before the merger. You worked for an uncompetivie airline that was on death's door. I think Parker should have let you fail but alas, he didn't. Bottom line though, you aren't stealing our seniority...

I'm not asking you to pay for anything. If you would get your head out of your rear you would remember that I have said that I don't believe that DOH as currently proposed by USAPA is fair to the west. But that doesn't mean the Nic was fair to the east and I don't think it was.

You haven't paid for anything, the east has. You guys are stuck in the fairytale land of what you airline and careers were. The east took the big hit in fleet and pay to make this merger work. The hits you have taken are probably smaller than you would have without the merger, just like on the east. But you guys refuse to see that and think the gains Nic gave you are justified.

 

[Pi brat]

PI, Never let facts get in the way of your fantasy arguments. Think about what you just said! I will wait.....





Now take a deep breath and go back to your seniority list in 2005 and count up the number of F/O's in the top 517.




Did you do it? By my count there were 8 F/O's in the top 517. Would you care to admit your mistake now?


As far as your statement about being staffed properly. Can to explain why you think you were not staffed properly? Could it be because US Airways was going to close the doors and they were burning the furniture to survive another day? Who cares who the FAA considered working for mainline or MDA. Nicolau was the one that decided that not the FAA.

Next question. Did everyone of those 300 recalled work at MDA or did some of them work somewhere else? It they were selling cars or building houses the FAA did not consider them US airways pilots.

Besides I think you just stepped on your own argument. You say they should have been recalled to mainline. Even if the argument is to be believe they worked for a "division" you just admitted they were not mainline pilots because they need to be recalled. the MDA guys say working at MDA was a recall. I think you just blew their theory and exposed the truth.

Could you unwrap yourself from the axle for long enough to think? I'm not talking about F/Os in the top 517, I'm talking about the fact that Nic gave the entire WB staffing, not just captain positions, to the top 517 pilots on the list. We did not have 517 WB captains. For a list that was supposedly slotted that gave some east captain super seniority over the top west pilots.

As for staffing, yeah that could have been, but wouldn't it have been more fair to even the numbers before the slotting? We were punished for working so hard, then those extra positions given to the west!

MDA was a mess. Started one way, finished another. It was intended to be a separate airline and the pilots were furloughed, but they never finished the job and the pilots were indeed working for US Airways and it turned out to be more like Metrojet than the wholly owned.

What difference does it make if they were actually working for MDA or not? There are many guys that ended up senior to you on the Nic that were on leave. They had a number.

 

[cleardirect]

Could you unwrap yourself from the axle for long enough to think? I'm not talking about F/Os in the top 517, I'm talking about the fact that Nic gave the entire WB staffing, not just captain positions, to the top 517 pilots on the list. We did not have 517 WB captains. For a list that was supposedly slotted that gave some east captain super seniority over the top west pilots.

As for staffing, yeah that could have been, but wouldn't it have been more fair to even the numbers before the slotting? We were punished for working so hard, then those extra positions given to the west!

MDA was a mess. Started one way, finished another. It was intended to be a separate airline and the pilots were furloughed, but they never finished the job and the pilots were indeed working for US Airways and it turned out to be more like Metrojet than the wholly owned.

What difference does it make if they were actually working for MDA or not? There are many guys that ended up senior to you on the Nic that were on leave. They had a number.

Yet most of the 517 positions weren't captain positons, they were F/O

I am just going by your own words. How are we supposed to read your statement? Trouble keeping your own story straight?

Not all those 300 were working for MDA or any other airline. No they are not senior to me. If they were furloughed at the time (did not have a job just a number) they are junior to all the AWA pilots.

 

[Pi brat]

I am just going by your own words. How are we supposed to read your statement? Trouble keeping your own story straight?

Not all those 300 were working for MDA or any other airline. No they are not senior to me. If they were furloughed at the time (did not have a job just a number) they are junior to all the AWA pilots.

You really have to follow along. Here's a quote "Yet most of the 517 positions". Positions clear, not pilots. If you would follow the discussion maybe you could get the idea. But with you, maybe not.

Again with MDA. I said there were people out on leave that were senior to you. The idea is that no everyone that is senior to you was working on the day of the merger. Maybe leaves, maybe sick, maybe a DFR by ALPA?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Playing those expectations when they're in your favor, huh? How about the east guy you mentioned. His realistic expectation prior to the merger agreement was starting over on the bottom of some other carrier's list or worse. Not having to do that is a windfall, wouldn't you think?

Jim

Even if one buys into that logic, it was not the west PILOTS that did anything at all to "save" US Airways. So, why should they get any more benefit from the actions of Bruce Lakefield and the money people who actually did the "saving."

That's the fallacy of the argument. The west PILOTS saved no one from liquidation. NO ONE. Period. The "we deserve the Nic and the east attrition because 'we saved you' argument is pure BS."

 

[nycbusdriver]

Four pilot seniority arbitrations in a row say you're wrong.

Jake,

If you are going to interject, please try to keep up. I'm not talking about DOH vs. Slotting.

No doubt he fixates on "Judge Wapner," too.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yet most of the 517 positions weren't captain positons, they were F/O, so the guys above 200 or so really did get super seniority(compared to the way the rest of the list was handled). Of course you are magnanimous about that, it allows you to ride you high white horse about the rest of the list. As or the bottom 300, it depends on who you ask. The FAA considered them US pilots. If we had been staffed properly as you were, they would have probably would have been recalled to the mainline.

Not only that, most (if not all) of the 517 were working here before American West even had an operating certificate. How is that a windfall for those 517, most of whom were also captains before American West started flying.

 

[cleardirect]

You really have to follow along. Here's a quote "Yet most of the 517 positions". Positions clear, not pilots. If you would follow the discussion maybe you could get the idea. But with you, maybe not.

Again with MDA. I said there were people out on leave that were senior to you. The idea is that no everyone that is senior to you was working on the day of the merger. Maybe leaves, maybe sick, maybe a DFR by ALPA?

Leaving out the rest of your quote. Is that something you east guys are taught? usapa does it all the time now you.

Yet most of the 517 positions weren't captain positons, they were F/O, so the guys above 200 or so really did get super seniority

You were specific. Captains and F/O's. You said most of the 517 position were not captains but f/o's. I told you there were 8 F/o's in the top 517. Damn man admit your error and move on.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If you have a valid need to know, I will forward it to you.

Don't EVER tell him. It drives him crazy!

 

[cleardirect]

Even if one buys into that logic, it was not the west PILOTS that did anything at all to "save" US Airways. So, why should they get any more benefit from the actions of Bruce Lakefield and the money people who actually did the "saving."

That's the fallacy of the argument. The west PILOTS saved no one from liquidation. NO ONE. Period. The "we deserve the Nic and the east attrition because 'we saved you' argument is pure BS."

Sure you want to apply your logic to this. You say that the west pilots did not save the east. How many times have we had to hear how the east pilots saved US Airways?

If you guys want to say that because or the billions you gave back you save the airline than the say can be said for the west saving the east. the west pilots because of our wages and contract allowed AWA to be in the position to save the east.

To bad all of the billions you guys gave back was not enough to save US airways. Parker has said many times you would liquidated without the merger.

The we saved you argument was believed by the only guy that counted. Nicolau.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You haven't paid for anything, the east has. You guys are stuck in the fairytale land of what you airline and careers were. The east took the big hit in fleet and pay to make this merger work. The hits you have taken are probably smaller than you would have without the merger, just like on the east. But you guys refuse to see that and think the gains Nic gave you are justified.

That is the single best concise summary of this entire mess. It deserves more attention, so I will repost it here with the emphasis it deserves:

You haven't paid for anything, the east has. You guys are stuck in the fairytale land of what you airline and careers were. The east took the big hit in fleet and pay to make this merger work. The hits you have taken are probably smaller than you would have without the merger, just like on the east. But you guys refuse to see that and think the gains Nic gave you are justified.

 

[Move2CLT]

That is the single best concise summary of this entire mess. It deserves more attention, so I will repost it here with the emphasis it deserves:

You haven't paid for anything, the east has. You guys are stuck in the fairytale land of what you airline and careers were. The east took the big hit in fleet and pay to make this merger work. The hits you have taken are probably smaller than you would have without the merger, just like on the east. But you guys refuse to see that and think the gains Nic gave you are justified.

The east paid US Air. That airline, along with your payment is gone. You gambled and lost.

Youre starting over.

Let it go.

 

[Phoenix]

Don't EVER tell him. It drives him crazy!

Just PM him and give him your phone number and tell him you look forward to his call so that you can tell him your name along with some super secret insider information! Just make sure you give him the number for Dominos Pizza.