US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Pretty lame for even you Matlock. Were laws concerning traffic, murder, rape, and theft covered under the Railroad Labor Act you might have point.

But I respect your "gun" comment, and will stay the heck off any roads in Guilford County. Is that were Clint Eastwood slept with that bored housewife for a while, or is it where Buford Pusser carried the big stick? Or maybe just were Aunt Bee got tipsy on the "elixir" she bought from a travelling salesman.

RR

When did they hold the vote on the RLA? How did you vote?

If you did not vote do you think they do not apply to you?

 

[Reed Richards]

Funny, you didn't mention anything about the NMB when you made the claims of not making promises or voting on use of the Nic. Jim

Lost me Jim. Don't remember promising the NMB anything, and the only promise they made to us is if we got enough cards we had a new union. We met their standards and they made the West MEC, ALPA, and all its baggage go away. Go figure.

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Really! Ask the Empire or Trump guy if that is a true statement.

Mergers change that.

So do NMB elections.

Empire was 25 years before USAPA, and Trump at best guess about 14.

Had either of those mergers occurred under USAPA things would have been different.

Surely, after all these years of web chatter we don’t have to explain once again the concept of a “ratified” list?

RR

 

[USA320Pilot]

Explain that process to me, how NIC will be "forced" upon US Airways by Judge Silver. Cliff Notes version is ok tonight, I am taking up way too much of your time.

RR

RR,

I'm not a legal expert and nobody can accurately predict how a court will rule. However, here's what I believe to be true:

1. Judge Silver agreed with every Leonidas and Company motion in the DJ case, she has placed the proceeding on an expedited schedule, and she has indicated she will rule in Leonidas' favor. And, only a legal mistake can be appealed not the Findings of Fact.

2. The DJ case is an action brought by US Airways, which will allow the Company, not USAPA, to determine its legal rights and obligations regarding the seniority list integration. The Company's attorney, Bob Siegel, told Judge Silver at the DJ Scheduling Conference it believes management is required by the pilot's contract to implement the Nicolau Award. This is the first time the Company has made this statement and is a major point.

3. I believe like with Judge Wake, Judge Silver will order USAPA and the Company to negotiate a joint contract that contains the Nicolau Award and this time it's unlikely the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal. Case law is specifically designed to permit disputes considered not yet ripe for adjudication to be decided by a DJ, thus, it is very unlikely USAPA can use ripeness to get the Ninth Circuit to order the District Court to dismiss or overturn the case.

In conclusion, Judge Silver will likely keep RLA provisions in place and she cannot order USAPA to reach a TA that includes the Nicolau Award, but lets be realistic. Over time the East anti-USAPA pilots, the new hires, and the West pilots will take over the union as pilots retire and new hires grow. The new hires have no dog in this fight, the majority of East Captains are not effected too much by the Nicolau Award, and 1,700 West pilots will do what is necessary to get a new contract with the Nicolau Award included.

Therefore, after the DJ case is decided in the not-too-distant future the votes will be there to take control of USAPA, change the C&BLs to permit the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a new contract.

USA320Pilot

 

[mrbreeze]

Why did you say "you don't even choose to vote?"

My point is I believe it's wrong to break a promise, it's wrong to intentionally violate a contract, it's wrong to virtually staple an entire pilot group to the bottom of a joint seniority list, and it's wrong to climb the backs of others. I too am disappointed that US Airways' East pilots did not have the career they dreamed of, but I believe character and integrity is more important than not abiding by one's word and violating a contract (the Transition Agreement).

Regardless, it appears in short-order the decision for US Airways' pilots will be to not integrate pilot groups per the Nicolau Award and continue with C2004/LOA 93 as their contract or accept Judge Silver's decision and negotiate a joint contract. If USAPA decides to remain status quo then I believe the 3rd listers or new hires; along with the East anti-USAPA/PHXpbased pilots, will eventually gain control of the union, which should occur in a couple of years, and then they will accept the Nicolau Award and negotiate a new contract.

You still don't get it....

You and your ALPA diehard buddies are no longer here on the property and we don't give a s**t what you believe. You screwed us all over for to many years.

again, unsubscribe me from your BS

breeze

 

[traderjake]

Questions remain about your skill set, and you apparently have enough excuses to never prove us all wrong.

Why don't you bid a trip with me then you can evaluate and report on my "skill set".

While you're there you can explain why you believe a Reserve F/O should be senior to a Captain on the same airplane because questions remain about your cognitive abilities.

 

[Phoenix]

RR,

I'm not a legal expert and nobody can accurately predict how a court will rule. However, here's what I believe to be true:

1. Judge Silver agreed with every Leonidas and Company motion in the DJ case, she has placed the proceeding on an expedited schedule, and she has indicated she will rule in Leonidas' favor. And, only a legal mistake can be appealed not the Findings of Fact.

2. The DJ case is an action brought by US Airways, which will allow the Company, not USAPA, to determine its legal rights and obligations regarding the seniority list integration. The Company's attorney, Bob Siegel, told Judge Silver at the DJ Scheduling Conference it believes management is required by the pilot's contract to implement the Nicolau Award. This is the first time the Company has made this statement and is a major point.

3. I believe like with Judge Wake, Judge Silver will order USAPA and the Company to negotiate a joint contract that contains the Nicolau Award and this time it's unlikely the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal. Case law is specifically designed to permit disputes considered not yet ripe for adjudication to be decided by a DJ, thus, it is very unlikely USAPA can use ripeness to get the Ninth Circuit to order the District Court to dismiss or overturn the case.

In conclusion, Judge Silver will likely keep RLA provisions in place and she cannot order USAPA to reach a TA that includes the Nicolau Award, but lets be realistic. Over time the East anti-USAPA pilots, the new hires, and the West pilots will take over the union as pilots retire and new hires grow. The new hires have no dog in this fight, the majority of East Captains are not effected too much by the Nicolau Award, and 1,700 West pilots will do what is necessary to get a new contract with the Nicolau Award included.

Therefore, after the DJ case is decided in the not-too-distant future the votes will be there to take control of USAPA, change the C&BLs to permit the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a new contract.

USA320Pilot

USA320Pilot,

With all due respect, without emotion and anger, it appears your sequence of events ignores one important reality. The sleeping pilot group was roused to vote because in large part ALPA repeatedly interfered and contradicted the wishes of the pilots. Even to the end... Have you so soon forgotten that ALPA obstructed a recall effort of Lance and the boys in CLT, and unseated the PHL reps, in the midst of an election? If the court sees fit to meddle in pilot affairs and presumes to have the power to tell pilots what they can and cannot vote on, then I don't think the pilots will be in a state of mind to be persuaded to your ideas of capitulating, according to the old ALPA tradition.

P.S. Your scenario was a vigorous advocacy for a majority approved direction to subvert the present pilot majority approved direction. Personally, I can't do that.

Phoenix

 

[Reed Richards]

“Judge Silver agreed with every Leonidas and Company motion in the DJ case, she has placed the proceeding on an expedited schedule, and she has made indicated she will rule in Leonidas' favor. And, only a legal mistake can be appealed not the Findings of Fact.”

Not so, you are confusing a “jury decision” with a DJ. Are you serious..no appeal to the DJ? Really?

“ The DJ case is an action brought by US Airways, which will allow the Company, not USAPA, to determine its legal rights and obligations regarding the seniority list integration. The Company's attorney, Bob Siegel, told Judge Silver at the DJ Scheduling Conference it believes management is required by the pilot's contract to implement the Nicolau Award. This is the first time the Company has made this statement and is a major point.”

Seems like a big gamble by Siegal (probably one of if not THE best labor attorneys around.) But read between the lines. Company looks like they are catering to the West, when in fact Bob knows darn well the courts are not going to give immunity, much less a required bargaining position to a free market publically traded company. Crazy like a fox, he knows the answer, and its “hit the road, do what is right and come to us for relief, not excuses before the fact.” Do you really thing the Company wants NIC “imposed” as a bargaining position (right or wrong) while in the midst of M&A?

“. I believe like with Judge Wake, Judge Silver will order USAPA and the Company to negotiate a joint contract that contains the Nicolau Award and this time it's unlikely the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal. Case law is specifically designed to permit disputes considered not yet ripe for adjudication to be decided by a DJ, thus, it is very unlikely USAPA can use ripeness to get the Ninth Circuit to order the District Court to dismiss or overturn the case.”

Yeah, the Ninth really did not mean what it said in its dicta from Addington. Never mind. And “ripeness” was not the accelerant to the Ninth, only the easy way out for them. The only reason we got expedited treatment was because two Circuit courts (Empire in CLT) ruled in opposition..we won’t have that here..years to go!

“In conclusion, Judge Silver will likely keep RLA provisions in place and she cannot order USAPA to reach a TA that includes the Nicolau Award, but let’s be realistic. Over time the East anti-USAPA pilots, the new hires, and the West pilots will take over the union as pilots retire and new hires grow. The new hires have no dog in this fight, the majority of East Captains are not affected too much by the Nicolau Award, and 1,700 West pilots will do what is necessary to get a new contract with the Nicolau Award included.

Therefore, after the DJ case is decided in the not-too-distant future the votes will be there to take control of USAPA, change the C&BLs to permit the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a new contract.”

And if ifs and buts were cherries we would all have a Merry Christmas. New hires on the East voting to allow the instant placement of 1700 pilots in front of them?..not going to happen. And as to that “1700” pilot number, only 1100 or so have, and will ever have, a “say.”

Best case USAPA wins the ability to negotiate freely this spring, with no restrictions. Worst case about 3 years from now, about the time you will be bypassing your Widebody bid to “allow” someone much less fortunate to take it, we will be back at the table.

RR

 

[USA320Pilot]

USA320Pilot,

With all due respect, without emotion and anger, it appears your sequence of events ignores one important reality. The sleeping pilot group was roused to vote because in large part ALPA repeatedly interfered and contradicted the wishes of the pilots. Even to the end... Have you so soon forgotten that ALPA obstructed a recall effort of Lance and the boys in CLT, and unseated the PHL reps, in the midst of an election? If the court sees fit to meddle in pilot affairs and presumes to have the power to tell pilots what they can and cannot vote on, then I don't think the pilots will be in a state of mind to be persuaded to your ideas of capitulating, according to the old ALPA tradition.

P.S. Your scenario was a vigorous advocacy for a majority approved direction to subvert the present pilot majority approved direction. Personally, I can't do that.

Phoenix

PHX,

I believe the court will order US Airways and USAPA to implement to Nicolau Award. Therefore, US Airways will make this a Section 22 requirement. Then in a couple of years the majority of pilots will rule (the East- anti-USAPA pilots, the 3rd listers, & USAPA's PHX-based pilots), which is the foundation of USAPA...majority rules.

USA320Pilot

 

[mrbreeze]

RR,

I'm not a legal expert and nobody can accurately predict how a court will rule. However, here's what I believe to be true:

1. Judge Silver agreed with every Leonidas and Company motion in the DJ case, she has placed the proceeding on an expedited schedule, and she has indicated she will rule in Leonidas' favor. And, only a legal mistake can be appealed not the Findings of Fact.

2. The DJ case is an action brought by US Airways, which will allow the Company, not USAPA, to determine its legal rights and obligations regarding the seniority list integration. The Company's attorney, Bob Siegel, told Judge Silver at the DJ Scheduling Conference it believes management is required by the pilot's contract to implement the Nicolau Award. This is the first time the Company has made this statement and is a major point.

3. I believe like with Judge Wake, Judge Silver will order USAPA and the Company to negotiate a joint contract that contains the Nicolau Award and this time it's unlikely the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal. Case law is specifically designed to permit disputes considered not yet ripe for adjudication to be decided by a DJ, thus, it is very unlikely USAPA can use ripeness to get the Ninth Circuit to order the District Court to dismiss or overturn the case.

In conclusion, Judge Silver will likely keep RLA provisions in place and she cannot order USAPA to reach a TA that includes the Nicolau Award, but lets be realistic. Over time the East anti-USAPA pilots, the new hires, and the West pilots will take over the union as pilots retire and new hires grow. The new hires have no dog in this fight, the majority of East Captains are not effected too much by the Nicolau Award, and 1,700 West pilots will do what is necessary to get a new contract with the Nicolau Award included.

Therefore, after the DJ case is decided in the not-too-distant future the votes will be there to take control of USAPA, change the C&BLs to permit the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a new contract.

USA320Pilot

Again, no one gives a sh*t what you believe....when will you ever learn that?

Your cub reporter position with ALPA has gone to your head. Worse than that, not only did ALPA sell us down the river, your BS "beliefs" cost a lot of pilots a lot of money.

You just don't have a clue as to how much the East pilots hate you, right? Otherwise, someone would listen and agree with you just once in awhile. When was the last time someone on this board, other than a West pilot agreed with what you believe? You're in a worse position than Pollack is and you don't ever see it.

please, please, please unsubscribe me to your ongoing BS. It was old 12 yrs ago and just sux today. Just go on and join AOL....really, CM, we don't care!

breeze

 

[USA320Pilot]

“Judge Silver agreed with every Leonidas and Company motion in the DJ case, she has placed the proceeding on an expedited schedule, and she has made indicated she will rule in Leonidas' favor. And, only a legal mistake can be appealed not the Findings of Fact.”

Not so, you are confusing a “jury decision” with a DJ. Are you serious..no appeal to the DJ? Really?

“ The DJ case is an action brought by US Airways, which will allow the Company, not USAPA, to determine its legal rights and obligations regarding the seniority list integration. The Company's attorney, Bob Siegel, told Judge Silver at the DJ Scheduling Conference it believes management is required by the pilot's contract to implement the Nicolau Award. This is the first time the Company has made this statement and is a major point.”

Seems like a big gamble by Siegal (probably one of if not THE best labor attorneys around.) But read between the lines. Company looks like they are catering to the West, when in fact Bob knows darn well the courts are not going to give immunity, much less a required bargaining position to a free market publically traded company. Crazy like a fox, he knows the answer, and its “hit the road, do what is right and come to us for relief, not excuses before the fact.” Do you really thing the Company wants NIC “imposed” as a bargaining position (right or wrong) while in the midst of M&A?

“. I believe like with Judge Wake, Judge Silver will order USAPA and the Company to negotiate a joint contract that contains the Nicolau Award and this time it's unlikely the Ninth Circuit will hear an appeal. Case law is specifically designed to permit disputes considered not yet ripe for adjudication to be decided by a DJ, thus, it is very unlikely USAPA can use ripeness to get the Ninth Circuit to order the District Court to dismiss or overturn the case.”

Yeah, the Ninth really did not mean what it said in its dicta from Addington. Never mind. And “ripeness” was not the accelerant to the Ninth, only the easy way out for them. The only reason we got expedited treatment was because two Circuit courts (Empire in CLT) ruled in opposition..we won’t have that here..years to go!

“In conclusion, Judge Silver will likely keep RLA provisions in place and she cannot order USAPA to reach a TA that includes the Nicolau Award, but let’s be realistic. Over time the East anti-USAPA pilots, the new hires, and the West pilots will take over the union as pilots retire and new hires grow. The new hires have no dog in this fight, the majority of East Captains are not affected too much by the Nicolau Award, and 1,700 West pilots will do what is necessary to get a new contract with the Nicolau Award included.

Therefore, after the DJ case is decided in the not-too-distant future the votes will be there to take control of USAPA, change the C&BLs to permit the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a new contract.”

And if ifs and buts were cherries we would all have a Merry Christmas. New hires on the East voting to allow the instant placement of 1700 pilots in front of them?..not going to happen. And as to that “1700” pilot number, only 1100 or so have, and will ever have, a “say.”

Best case USAPA wins the ability to negotiate freely this spring, with no restrictions. Worst case about 3 years from now, about the time you will be bypassing your Widebody bid to “allow” someone much less fortunate to take it, we will be back at the table.

RR

RR,

I disagree.

Exactly one-month from today (in 20 minutes) the Summary Judgment replies are due to be filed in Judge Silver's court. Shortly thereafter we will know the DJ decision. At some point the East anti-USAPA, 3rd lister, and USAPA's PHX-based pilots will control the union. And, I understand there are some interesting developments that could accelerate a union change of control from Mike Cleary to the East anti-USAPA, 3rd lister, and USAPA's PHX-based coalition. If true then we will see the new majority rule sooner rather than later.

Good night.

USA320Pilot

 

[traderjake]

You just don't have a clue as to how much the East pilots hate you, right?

Still blaming CM for your stock losses?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Again, no one gives a sh*t what you believe....when will you ever learn that?

Your cub reporter position with ALPA has gone to your head. Worse than that, not only did ALPA sell us down the river, your BS "beliefs" cost a lot of pilots a lot of money.

You just don't have a clue as to how much the East pilots hate you, right? Otherwise, someone would listen and agree with you just once in awhile. When was the last time someone on this board, other than a West pilot agreed with what you believe? You're in a worse position than Pollack is and you don't ever see it.

please, please, please unsubscribe me to your ongoing BS. It was old 12 yrs ago and just sux today. Just go on and join AOL....really, CM, we don't care!

breeze

Breeze,

If you and so many people don't care what I have to say then why are you so emotional?

Have a good night.

USA320Pilot

P.S. I believe USAPA's gig is about over...

 

[Reed Richards]

Why don't you bid a trip with me then you can evaluate and report on my "skill set".

While you're there you can explain to me why you believe a Reserve F/O should be senior to a Captain on the same airplane.

Questions remain about your cognitive abilities.

You will always be junior to me, and I have no questions about your "skill set." You are a known quantity to many of us.

Ah yes, the day trading guy "above us all" who does not really need the job.... but somehow still does.

RR

 

[mrbreeze]

Breeze,

If you and so many people don't care what I have to say then why are you so emotional?

Have a good night.

USA320Pilot

P.S. I believe USAPA's gig is about over...

Only because we know better than to belivev anything that you say and you are just adding fuel to the fire......NO ONE wins anything when they believe anything that you have to say. The West pilots "want" to believe all the BS you spew, but they don't know you like we do.

breeze