US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I agree about John's status. Of the three, he was the only one I thought might have a problem if the company decided to use him as a fall guy.

Problem for the company though, if they fired John for his part in this issue, what do you do with the dual unionist who stole West pilots info from ALPA or where ever Bradfod and Co. got it, and how exactly did usapa know the SS numbers were encrypted in the file?

Maybe that saved him, who knows? I wasn't making a statement on whether he should be fired, just surprised this company didn't fire him to protect itself. Looks like their procedures may be the real culprit.

 

[Phoenix]

I think "internal union disputes" are often resolved through legal process, such as we already mention "binding arbitration".

..
I'll go ahead and give you mine before you make the "less filing" post.

A unions duty of fair representation is something the little union busting lawyer Scabford hired to found usapa completely disregarded when he sold the gullible east pilots on their seniority theft scandal.

Oh, you are such a spoiler. You are supposed to respond "less filling".

..

What is your take on a "unions duty of fair representation".

..

I have already agreed with the premise that all unions have a duty to fairly represent their members. And members have many legal means to deal with unions that don't.

...I find it ironic that some vociferously proclaim that USAPA can and will be held responsible for any ISL outcome accomplished under its tenure, but at the same time cling to the notion that ALPA is free to self-proclaim no responsibility, and even impotence, through a slight of hand called outsourcing. Either a union is responsible or it isn't.

In other words, if one union is responsible to its members, so was the other. And there are various means of legal recourse available for members to hold their union to its responsibilities.

 

[cactusboy53]

Trader,

Here's a rhetorical question for anyone to comment on. No need to discuss alpa policy at time, just an ethics question.

Would it have been " ethical " to slot relative seniority in psa/aaa merger ?

Please tell us all where YOU would be on Nic list had that happened.

FA

Is it ethical for for a union to take dues money and use it in multiple legal battles against those dues payers? Is it ethical to attempt to persecute a small group for alleged RICO charges thereby making those pilots suffer financially to defend said FAILED legal attacks (that those pilots also paid for with their dues money)? Is it ethical to exclude the PHX base pilots from nearly all (and most certainly all key) committee leadership positions? Is it ethical to start a new union expressly for the purposes of evading a final and binding seniority list?

Please tell us where you would be if America West Holdings hadn't secured the investments to acquire the OLD US Air.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Phoenix - ...I find it ironic that some vociferously proclaim that USAPA can and will be held responsible for any ISL outcome accomplished under its tenure, but at the same time cling to the notion that ALPA is free to self-proclaim no responsibility, and even impotence, through a slight of hand called outsourcing. Either a union is responsible or it isn't.

Just because you don't like the outcome it doesn't mean that ALPA shirked it's responsibility, was impotent, or used slight of hand. ALPA provided a fair process - you not liking the result doesn't negate that. The East had a chance to make the argument for it's preferred solution just like the West did, and neither side got everything it wanted. In addition, unlike USAPA's plan to avoid a final and binding arbitration result, ALPA's merger policy has been vetted in court and found to be fair.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Is it ethical for for a union to take dues money and use it in multiple legal battles against those dues payers? Is it ethical to attempt to persecute a small group for alleged RICO charges thereby making those pilots suffer financially to defend said FAILED legal attacks (that those pilots also paid for with their dues money)? Is it ethical to exclude the PHX base pilots from nearly all (and most certainly all key) committee leadership positions? Is it ethical to start a new union expressly for the purposes of evading a final and binding seniority list?

Please tell us where you would be if America West Holdings hadn't secured the investments to acquire the OLD US Air.

Friend, you need this more than I do. I insist.

 

[nevergiveup]

Phoenix - ...I find it ironic that some vociferously proclaim that USAPA can and will be held responsible for any ISL outcome accomplished under its tenure, but at the same time cling to the notion that ALPA is free to self-proclaim no responsibility, and even impotence, through a slight of hand called outsourcing. Either a union is responsible or it isn't.

Just because you don't like the outcome it doesn't mean that ALPA shirked it's responsibility, was impotent, or used slight of hand. ALPA provided a fair process - you not liking the result doesn't negate that. The East had a chance to make the argument for it's preferred solution just like the West did, and neither side got everything it wanted. In addition, unlike USAPA's plan to avoid a final and binding arbitration result, ALPA's merger policy has been vetted in court and found to be fair.

Jim

We are, however, free to disagree!

 

[fatherabraham]

Is it ethical for for a union to take dues money and use it in multiple legal battles against those dues payers? Is it ethical to attempt to persecute a small group for alleged RICO charges thereby making those pilots suffer financially to defend said FAILED legal attacks (that those pilots also paid for with their dues money)? Is it ethical to exclude the PHX base pilots from nearly all (and most certainly all key) committee leadership positions? Is it ethical to start a new union expressly for the purposes of evading a final and binding seniority list?

Please tell us where you would be if America West Holdings hadn't secured the investments to acquire the OLD US Air.

CB,
Since " ethics " has been argued since beginning of time, I can only offer my opinion to your LEADING questions.
If determined that the law " today " agrees with innocence of said west victims then one would have the " more righteous stance" to argue concerning your first 4 questions.
Do you typically reply to questions with questions?????

Your last sentence truly made me laugh. Not even worthy of a reply!

FA

 

[Phoenix]

We are, however, free to disagree!

Yes, free to disagree and its even better than that. Some still cling to the notion that members have no recourse with respect to the fairness of their union except through some court opinion about the duty to fairly represent its members. To think some actually think fairness is only in the eye of the court. If only ALPA could have lived that fairy tale. Bah!

It is a sweet irony that in fact there is a solution to the disagreement among members of a union about fairness (and of course there will always be disagreements about what is fair, BFD that is what happens in a democracy). That is why votes were invented... and it is why folks on every side are still trying their best to win votes. It ain't about individual arguments about fairness, its about the votes. Arguments about fairness are only a means to persuading folks about the vote.

The fact is that a DFR adjudication about ALPA's DFR already happened and some want a redo. In the future there will be votes about USAPA. Long live the vote. 😛

 

[luvn737s]

What has Cleary let you vote on lately? Or are you just speaking of the theoretical?

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Creates An Additional Full FPL And Stipend Position: January 11, 2012

Dear Subscriber,

Update for January 11, 2012

Quick Fact #219: The US Airways pilots are the lowest paid major airline pilots in the country and pay the highest dues rate. With severe financial issues facing the union, should USAPA increase the number of pilots receiving full time FPL and Stipends by making both Chris Fillar and Todd Fieser full time USAPA “volunteers?”

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[Phoenix]

What has Cleary let you vote on lately? Or are you just speaking of the theoretical?

If you think past votes have resulted in something unfair then vote however you want to in the next election. Its a free country. Enjoy it.

 

[luvn737s]

What's your take on "internal union dispute"?

"Tastes great!"

over to you...

When was Nicolau hired as an airline pilot and became an ALPA member? ALPA didn't accidentally hire an outside arbitrator.

He is what makes the internal, external. The agreement between the parties made it binding.

 

[fatherabraham]

I would be more senior than I am now as would all the PI Captains that were made junior to PSA F/Os.

Trader,
Thx for reply, already had a fairly good understanding of your ethic ideas.
W/o being specific, please state within 50 how many westies were placed below you on Nic list assuming you got relative position or a even worse deal like Nic in psa/aaa merge?
Stating above bit too subjective for me to get a grip on potential biased motives.
To be fair, am reasonably certain your DOH was before mine. Only a 100 put below me!
FA

 

[Move2CLT]

Trader,
Thx for reply, already had a fairly good understanding of your ethic ideas.
W/o being specific, please state within 50 how many westies were placed below you on Nic list.
Stating above bit too subjective for me to get a grip on potential biased motives.
To be fair, am reasonably certain your DOH was before mine. Only a 100 put below me!
FA

What was your relative seniority?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Trader,
Thx for reply, already had a fairly good understanding of your ethic ideas.
W/o being specific, please state within 50 how many westies were placed below you on Nic list.
Stating above bit too subjective for me to get a grip on potential biased motives.
To be fair, am reasonably certain your DOH was before mine. Only a 100 put below me!
FA

So, you had about 200 East pilots below you at the PID as the ratio was 2:1. What's your problem? You were at the bottom before the merger and you are still relatively in the same place.