US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

I thought so. You pulled it out of your a##. [i]Otherwise my statements are out there for you to list. I've got a suggestion for you: How about some facts when you make an accusation next time?[/i]

I've read the court documents. The latest final ruling I remember was "not ripe" from SFO. I've read Judge Silver's and agreed with old clear that I think that even if she says the company has to NEGOTIATE, the company won't go along with DOH. What else would you like to know? As you don't use facts about a person.

IDK brat....the amount you post on here seems to be what I would call an east centric occult... tricky when I search all of them and very, very, very time consuming. Since my gb packers lost...I'm not going to waste any more time with you...thx for replying btw...

OTTER

 

[cactusboy53]

Let's get this out in the open, where it belongs:

From Pi brat via private messages:
“TOOL?”
“You want to call me a name and then not answer? I guess that dinner is off. Damn.”

Pi;
First of all I choose to communicate privately with other forum users for the purposes of exchange of private information, meeting times, etc. I don’t know what you are trying to accomplish with your messages.

Something is wrong. It has been wrong for nearly six years now. It started with the AAA pilot group marching into the joint seniority negotiations and demanding DATE OF HIRE. It went on with the mediation and arbitration demanding DATE OF HIRE. It took a serious left turn when the AAA MEC instructed their JNC participants to leave the JNC table, and has gone downhill from there.

I guess the key “wrong” thing is how any group of unprincipled, amoral, bent, unscrupulous, crooked, dishonest, mean, unethical, cheating, conscienceless, deceitful, reprobate, devious, shady, stop-at-NOTHING people could be allowed to pretend to function as a “union” for so long. I wouldn’t call these names, but completely accurate descriptive terms of USAPA's leadership & supporters.

Anyone with the slightest moral compass KNOWS that your group continues to hit new all time lows.

I can tell you this: When the final stake is placed in the heart of the existing USAPA leadership, and the Nicolau list is cast in stone as the ONLY seniority list, we won’t have any difficulty dancing on your USAPA grave. Your ill will toward us, your vile behavior directed at us, your continued assaults (legal and such) on us have made you the pariahs of the commercial aviation industry.

Dinner? I guess it's up to you to decide. Some of the most famous dinners included guests such as tax collectors & sinners (I'm a charter member of that group).

 

[cactusboy53]

Yes, they needed to be disciplined like a certain chief pilot that single-handedly cost the company millions of dollars. Did you watch the latest PHX crew news? Millions, yet his punishment was almost a year paid vacation, and one month off paid. Good thing his didn't do something really terrible like not finish his home work!

A couple of other interesting things in that one and the F/A session. In the pilots Mr. We Hate You Guys! was back making a fool of himself. Doug always seems to handle him well, you think he would get tired of the a## kicking. That's not you, is it? And in the F/A session, did you catch how inefficient PHX is now because they have get you guys back east to fly? Then there is the insulting of former east managers while they are in the room with you. That's smart. Those guys should be running for USAPA officer positions.

It just goes to show that one should refrain from typing angry. This is the rebuttal that I was looking for when I did my first reply:

It's called "proximate cause" and apply the "but for" test. But for the actions of USAPA President Mike Cleary* would Eric, John and Ken have suffered harm from the company? The answer is a resounding "NO!"

*Mike succeeded twice in throwing his own members under-the-bus by throwing a temper-tantum during the November 2010 labor management meeting causing the first company investigation; an investigation tht revealed no wrong doing. Then in March of 2010, the company opens a second investigation after Cleary launches a vicious campaign against the three causing a second investigation that essentially reveals the exact same result of the first. All this who-ha BS because the West pilots are standing up for our seniority rights embodied in the Nicolau award.

This blurb is courtesy of a co-worker that exceeds my ability to communicate in print by leaps and bounds.

Here's another proximate cause statement that I came up with: But for the actions of the former US Air MEC, US Air pilot group and the new "union" USAPA (for failing to accept the final & binding seniority arbitration), would we now have a new ratified contract and be well on our way to a second post-merger contract negotiation (much like NWA/DAL)? The answer is a resounding YES!!

 

[Pi brat]

It just goes to show that one should refrain from typing angry. This is the rebuttal that I was looking for when I did my first reply:

It's called "proximate cause" and apply the "but for" test. But for the actions of USAPA President Mike Cleary* would Eric, John and Ken have suffered harm from the company? The answer is a resounding "NO!"

*Mike succeeded twice in throwing his own members under-the-bus by throwing a temper-tantum during the November 2010 labor management meeting causing the first company investigation; an investigation tht revealed no wrong doing. Then in March of 2010, the company opens a second investigation after Cleary launches a vicious campaign against the three causing a second investigation that essentially reveals the exact same result of the first. All this who-ha BS because the West pilots are standing up for our seniority rights embodied in the Nicolau award.

This blurb is courtesy of a co-worker that exceeds my ability to communicate in print by leaps and bounds.

Here's another proximate cause statement that I came up with: But for the actions of the former US Air MEC, US Air pilot group and the new "union" USAPA (for failing to accept the final & binding seniority arbitration), would we now have a new ratified contract and be well on our way to a second post-merger contract negotiation (much like NWA/DAL)? The answer is a resounding YES!!

WHAT A CROCK! Here's the real "but for" as seen by some west pilots, particularly many on this board. But for the poor behavior of others, I would not have HAD to conduct MY own bad behavior. Another famous one is "why do you speak of the speck in my eye when there is a log in yours?

CB, JS violated company policy. That is the finding of fact. My main point, and I can concede that I probably didn't do a good job of conveying it as I did it somewhat TIC, was not that he was an awful person, or he should have been fired. My point was that he made a MISTAKE(for whatever reason), and in doing so he cost the company and compromised other peoples private information. Other people have made mistakes(for whatever reason) and gotten fired. Not finishing your homework and getting fired vs. causing the release of thousands of S.S.3# and getting a paid year off then one month unpaid. Do you not see some hypocrisy there? It's our current management style. The west deflecting this one to the east is sad. Kind of like someone being arrested and complaining that they wouldn't have had the victim not gone to the police. Or, " I just had to loot and steal that TV, I've been disadvantaged".

CB, that is MY S.S.#. You may say it was no big deal, but it was my #, given to a group that has 2 people in it that I have personally dealt with that I do not trust. I don't think it was intentional and even though I don't trust a couple of the guys that got it, I don't think they are stupid enough to do anything with it. I did not want to see any of the guys fired and I wish USAPA would drop the issue. But, it was done and it is out there and I really don't know where it may have gone. The good thing that came out of this is the the company realized that some information wasn't as secure as it should be and took the steps to make it so. You say it was done to the west. If so it should have been followed up with company.

You know what would have gone a long way with me? For JS to say "Hey guys, I made a mistake. I really didn't know the info. was in there, and never intended any harm. I apologize". Guess what. He didn't and through someone I know personally, he did pretty much the opposite.

Bottom line: Two wrongs don't make a right. I've freely admitted that some of my east brother have behaved very badly, even I have on this board. I fought against them for the C18 and even with this issued I urged restraint. But, that behavior doesn't make some of the west behaviors right and as you have proclaimed yourself a Christian, I would think you would see that. You are correct that had the east accepted the results of the process a lot of bad things never would have happened. But our group didn't, and that doesn't give the west to do anything they feel like in order to win.

That PM that you posted was the second. You didn't post the first one, the one that you didn't answer where I tried to clarify if you did indeed call me a tool.
Dinner is still on if you want, and it's on me. I've found that when we actually meet each other we find we are not so much different.

 

[Pi brat]

IDK brat....the amount you post on here seems to be what I would call an east centric occult... tricky when I search all of them and very, very, very time consuming. Since my gb packers lost...I'm not going to waste any more time with you...thx for replying btw...

OTTER

I think the problem for you is that you can't understand when someone is not as black and white as you are. I say something about the Nic being unfair, bam! I'm a terrible, unethical eastie and you never take the time to listen to the rest of it.

Many in this fight(both sides) and particularly on this forum are a lot like our country in general these days. One side or the other. No middle ground and no attempt to compromise to overall better solution, it has to be their solution, by God. And, if you dare say something that might even be construed as supporting a view from the other side, then you are a traitor.

You are just like a lot of easties I know. So many of you would make awesome USAPA supporters had you been hired on this side of the fence.

Probably best if we do stop wasting each others time.

 

[CallawayGolf]

WHAT A CROCK! Here's the real "but for" as seen by some west pilots, particularly many on this board. But for the poor behavior of others, I would not have HAD to conduct MY own bad behavior. Another famous one is "why do you speak of the speck in my eye when there is a log in yours?

CB, JS violated company policy. That is the finding of fact. My main point, and I can concede that I probably didn't do a good job of conveying it as I did it somewhat TIC, was not that he was an awful person, or he should have been fired. My point was that he made a MISTAKE(for whatever reason), and in doing so he cost the company and compromised other peoples private information. Other people have made mistakes(for whatever reason) and gotten fired. Not finishing your homework and getting fired vs. causing the release of thousands of S.S.3# and getting a paid year off then one month unpaid. Do you not see some hypocrisy there? It's our current management style.

CB, that is MY S.S.#. You may say it was no big deal, but it was my #, given to a group that has 2 people in it that I have personally dealt with that I do not trust. I don't think it was intentional and even though I don't trust a couple of the guys that got it, I don't think they are stupid enough to do anything with it. I did not want to see any of the guys fired and I wish USAPA would drop the issue. But, it was done and it is out there and I really don't know where it may have gone. The good thing that came out of this is the the company realized that some information wasn't as secure as it should be and took the steps to make it so. You say it was done to the west. If so it should have been followed up with company.

You know what would have gone a long way with me? For JS to say "Hey guys, I made a mistake. I really didn't know the info. was in there, and never intended any harm. I apologize". Guess what. He didn't and through someone I know personally, he did pretty much the opposite.

Bottom line: Two wrongs don't make a right. I've freely admitted that my east brother have behaved very badly. I fought against them for the C18 and even with this issued I urged restraint. But, that behavior doesn't make some of the west behaviors right and as you have proclaimed yourself a Christian, I would think you would see that.

That PM that you posted was the second. You didn't post the first one, the one that you didn't answer where I tried to clarify if you did indeed call me a tool.
Dinner is still on if you want, and it's on me. I've found that when we actually meet each other we find we are not so much different.

I agree with much of your post here Pi. Two wrongs do not make a right and in a world outside of unions and the NMB both "mistakes" you provide by way of example might easily result in employee terminations. Where I differ is in classifying the two "mistakes" as being equivalent or the different outcomes being the result of some hypocritical application of company policy.

The sending of employee information was in violation of company policy and it did result in protected personal information being transmitted when it should not have been. This action however was not deemed to be illegal and no one has proven that there was any intent to bring harm to the company or to the individuals who were victimized by this event. The names and addresses were used to send information to people about an ongoing and unresolved company issue that everyone involved would ultimately like to see resolved. So the intent of the person/people who violated company policy, which was not to engage in illegal conduct or to bring harm to another part (except perhaps USAPA's credibility) plays a big role in the punishment that was given here. The intentions did not match the resulting outcome of transferring employee address data.

For those who were fired or disciplined in some other way for failing to complete required training, there is no equivalence as you suggest. First, there was a documented and coordinated attempt to bring harm to the company operations via scheduling disruptions which were intended to delay or cancel revenue passenger flights. Furthermore it was proven in a federal court that these actions were illegal with regard to the RLA's status quo requirements. So these pilots engaged in an illegal activity which resulted in real harm to the company and it's customers as an intentional and volitional act of the perpetrators. For these individuals, the intent resulted in the desired outcome - true harm to the company's financial health and it's reputation with it's customers.

Surely you can admit that there was a clear and objectively evident difference between the actions of these two groups. The only surprise here is that more east pilots caught intentionally trying to disrupt company operations weren't fired as well (or should I say Wells?)

 

[Pi brat]

So these pilots engaged in an illegal activity which resulted in real harm to the company and it's customers as an intentional and volitional act of the perpetrators.

Surely you can admit that there was a clear and objectively evident difference between the actions of these two groups. The only surprise here is that more east pilots caught intentionally trying to disrupt company operations weren't fired as well (or should I say Wells?)

Do you KNOW for sure that the pilots terminated were actually participating in the job action? Do you have complete faith in our flight ops managers(you know, the guys that are so maligned by west pilots at just about every PHX crew news) that out of the 100+ guys that didn't finish their DL on time, including a west guy, they got the 2 that were on a job action? I don't. Is there any chance that these 2 guys were innocent bystanders? Would be really bad for them and their families if they were, sort of like the innocent C18 pilots and their families that got beaten up because a few idiots thought making thousands of phone calls would bring a union to it's knees. And as for Wells, I don't know I wasn't there, but I don't think you were either and until I'm given a reason I will trust her more than our current managers who just want their bonuses.

I have some people that are close to me that have been in management at this company. I have seen very clear acts that were not as they seems on the outside. Scapegoats. I'm sure it happens at every company, but it does't make it right.

I do agree that the issues are different and I think the release of SS#s was worse than not finishing DL, even if the DL was done intentionally. There was a published penalty for that-you don't get paid. Do you really think those 2 guys cost this company millions of dollars by not being current for a day or 2?

BTW, In the months leading up to May 2011 I heard several guys say they didn't do their DL UNTIL the last minute to "mess with the company". I never heard a single pilot advocate not finishing. I disagreed with them, and told them that it really just messed with a secretary, and beyond that, I'd be the guy that forgot and didn't finish.

 

[Move2CLT]

Many in this fight(both sides) and particularly on this forum are a lot like our country in general these days. One side or the other. No middle ground and no attempt to compromise to overall better solution, it has to be their solution, by God. And, if you dare say something that might even be construed as supporting a view from the other side, then you are a traitor.

You are just like a lot of easties I know. So many of you would make awesome USAPA supporters had you been hired on this side of the fence.

Probably best if we do stop wasting each others time.

WTFAYTA? We did have middle ground. It was called mediation. Then it was called arbitration. Both sides went into it voluntarily, both sides knew the rules, and both sides struck for Nicolau.

Problem with you guys is that you seem to miss all that.

The compromise already happened. You guys are having ethical problems by not accepting the award.

At least youre paying for it.

 

[Pi brat]

The only surprise here is that more east pilots caught intentionally trying to disrupt company operations weren't fired as well (or should I say Wells?)

I can agree with you on this one. It's one of the reasons I cannot understand the DL firings. These were two F/Os fired for a really minor offense when surely there had to be a least a few captains operating their A/C in a way contrary to company procedures in order to get enough data that a federal judge issued an injunction, right? I mean that was a constant west point when I said that I didn't think the action was as big as the company claimed. Why not them, why the F/Os? Could it have been that one of the big things the company brought up were maintenance issues and they didn't want it finding it's way into the paper that they took discipline against a pilot for writing up broken items? Or taxiing too fast, or flying slow? Not sure any of that would play well with the public while the issue was in the spotlight, but firing a couple of lowly F/Os would send a message and not make it into the papers like the fuel school did. Do you really think Isom and Bular left those decisions to CPs?

 

[Pi brat]

WTFAYTA? We did have middle ground. It was called mediation. Then it was called arbitration. Both sides went into it voluntarily, both sides knew the rules, and both sides struck for Nicolau.

Problem with you guys is that you seem to miss all that.

The compromise already happened. You guys are having ethical problems by not accepting the award.

At least your paying for it.

You missed prior to and during negotiations. Were you on the ALPA board when the "you sucks" started flying right after the merger was announced?

You are paying for it too. And will for the rest of your career.

 

[Move2CLT]

Do you KNOW for sure that the pilots terminated were actually participating in the job action? Do you have complete faith in our flight ops managers(you know, the guys that are so maligned by west pilots at just about every PHX crew news) that out of the 100+ guys that didn't finish their DL on time, including a west guy, they got the 2 that were on a job action? I don't. Is there any chance that these 2 guys were innocent bystanders? Would be really bad for them and their families if they were, sort of like the innocent C18 pilots and their families that got beaten up because a few idiots thought making thousands of phone calls would bring a union to it's knees. And as for Wells, I don't know I wasn't there, but I don't think you were either and until I'm given a reason I will trust her more than our current managers who just want their bonuses.

I have some people that are close to me that have been in management at this company. I have seen very clear acts that were not as they seems on the outside. Scapegoats. I'm sure it happens at every company, but it does't make it right.

I do agree that the issues are different and I think the release of SS#s was worse than not finishing DL, even if the DL was done intentionally. There was a published penalty for that-you don't get paid. Do you really think those 2 guys cost this company millions of dollars by not being current for a day or 2?

BTW, In the months leading up to May 2011 I heard several guys say they didn't do their DL UNTIL the last minute to "mess with the company". I never heard a single pilot advocate not finishing. I disagreed with them, and told them that it really just messed with a secretary, and beyond that, I'd be the guy that forgot and didn't finish.

They were examples. The company simply picked two pilots that were f'ing off and terminated them to show the rest of the pilot group they were serious. You're right, they didn't do any more of any less than other pilots, but someone had to be put on the street.

And they won. Congratulations to them. Their sacrifice saved other jobs because of the example the company set using them.

Yep, its a pretty simple explanation, but those are the ones that are usually correct.

I wonder how their Christmas was?

 

[Pi brat]

They were examples. The company simply picked two pilots that were f'ing off and terminated them to show the rest of the pilot group they were serious. You're right, they didn't do any more of any less than other pilots, but someone had to be put on the street.

And they won. Congratulations to them. Their sacrifice saved other jobs because of the example the company set using them.

Yep, its a pretty simple explanation, but those are the ones that are usually correct.

I wonder how their Christmas was?

You are the perfect example of what is wrong with this pilot group. You have exactly the same mindset as the worst in USAPA.

 

[Move2CLT]

You missed prior to and during negotiations. Were you on the ALPA board when the "you sucks" started flying right after the merger was announced?

You are paying for it too. And will for the rest of your career.

I sure was. I was their reading Chip expound the virtues of USAPA and how we better fix this or you east guys would show us. I still laugh at that stuff.

And no boo boo, I'm not paying for it. For me, status quo is no big deal. For you, status quo means LOA93.

All that money you made, when you average it out now, is gone.

So remember, you guys had your chance and blew it. The compromise is done and DOH is dead. Your only choice is LOA93 or a new contract with the Nic - nothing else.

Pretty black and white.

 

[Pi brat]

I sure was. I was their reading Chip expound the virtues of USAPA and how we better fix this or you east guys would show us. I still laugh at that stuff.

And no boo boo, I'm not paying for it. For me, status quo is no big deal. For you, status quo means LOA93.

All that money you made, when you average it out now, is gone.

So remember, you guys had your chance and blew it. The compromise is done and DOH is dead. Your only choice is LOA93 or a new contract with the Nic - nothing else.

Pretty black and white.

Does anyone see this as screwed up logic?

 

[Move2CLT]

You are the perfect example of what is wrong with this pilot group. You have exactly the same mindset as the worst in USAPA.

How's that Pi? Facts are facts and it is what it is. These guys were either complete morons (my guess) or they didn't care about the repercussions. But we all know that if you play you pay.

Man up boo boo.