US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Does anyone see this as screwed up logic?

Only you easties.

The rest of us see this like any other individual with a shred of ethics would see it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Hey Pi,

Were you just as appalled when Bradford used stolen addresses to mail you USAPA info?

 

[Pi brat]

Hey Pi,

Were you just as appalled when Bradford used stolen addresses to mail you USAPA info?

Did he? Did he have access to my S.S.#? If so, then yes, but I've seen no finding that he did.

Show me the facts and get back to me.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Do you KNOW for sure that the pilots terminated were actually participating in the job action? Do you have complete faith in our flight ops managers(you know, the guys that are so maligned by west pilots at just about every PHX crew news) that out of the 100+ guys that didn't finish their DL on time, including a west guy, they got the 2 that were on a job action? I don't. Is there any chance that these 2 guys were innocent bystanders? Would be really bad for them and their families if they were, sort of like the innocent C18 pilots and their families that got beaten up because a few idiots thought making thousands of phone calls would bring a union to it's knees. And as for Wells, I don't know I wasn't there, but I don't think you were either and until I'm given a reason I will trust her more than our current managers who just want their bonuses.

I have some people that are close to me that have been in management at this company. I have seen very clear acts that were not as they seems on the outside. Scapegoats. I'm sure it happens at every company, but it does't make it right.

I do agree that the issues are different and I think the release of SS#s was worse than not finishing DL, even if the DL was done intentionally. There was a published penalty for that-you don't get paid. Do you really think those 2 guys cost this company millions of dollars by not being current for a day or 2?

BTW, In the months leading up to May 2011 I heard several guys say they didn't do their DL UNTIL the last minute to "mess with the company". I never heard a single pilot advocate not finishing. I disagreed with them, and told them that it really just messed with a secretary, and beyond that, I'd be the guy that forgot and didn't finish.

I know for sure that USAPA, based on data presented in a federal on east operational performance, was considered to be enough proof to convince an unbiased federal judge that an illegal work slowdown campaign was employed beginning in May of 2010. I also know that the Company used the failure to complete DL as one of the bonifide tactics employed in the illegal work slowdown campaign. I know that a temporary and now a permanent injunction has been placed on the pilots of US Airways because USAPA was found to have violated the status quo. And finally I know that the Company would be open to substantial liability for wrongful termination if they didn't have enough documented evidence to support the firings. Beyond that, the only way any of us will know what these FO's (angry or otherwise) did is if they voluntarily unseal their employment records and file a lawsuit against the company. In the current vacuum of irrefutable proof to the contrary, the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that the terminations were fully justified and the now former FOs got the discipline they deserved for their illegal job actions.

Justice is not always equally applied, but the guilty have little recourse for their own conduct contrary to the law. For example, I might be driving in a line of cars all going 20MPH over the speed limit, but if I get pulled over and the other nine cars driving the same speed did not, then I have very little recourse unless I can prove that average speed on that stretch of highway was 20MPH over the speed limit. If I can't prove that, then I get the moving violation penalty and the other cars just got away with it. That's life.

 

[Pi brat]

And finally I know that the Company would be open to substantial liability for wrongful termination if they didn't have enough documented evidence to support the firings.

Justice is not always equally applied, but the guilty have little recourse for their own conduct contrary to the law.

Kinda backs up my theory of why they went after the ones the did, doesn't it? They were easy. Some idiots put out written statements about not finishing DL until the last minute(but again, I don't remember seeing it written to not actually finish, do you?) and some don't, then they get them. But you can't say the punishment was applied evenly to everyone that didn't do it, and unlike the speeder that got away, the company knew the ones that didn't finish. This is more like the cop pulled 2 dozen cars at the same time, but told certain ones to not worry about it. Like say the ones with the right license plates, just because he can.


The last line sums up what I've tried to say about JS. Thanks, I agree.

 

[Pi brat]

Only you easties.

The rest of us see this like any other individual with a shred of ethics would see it.

I'm glad to see you refer to others that have a shred of ethics, because from you actions I don't put you in that group.

This whole group has lost. A tremendous amount, and if you can't see that, well what does that say about you?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I do agree that the issues are different and I think the release of SS#s was worse than not finishing DL, even if the DL was done intentionally. There was a published penalty for that-you don't get paid. Do you really think those 2 guys cost this company millions of dollars by not being current for a day or 2?

The two issues are different:
One was deemed to be illegal by a federal court; the other resulted in no legal action whatsoever

One action was the result of an intent to harm via illegal conduct; the other had no such intent, legal or illegal

One required a federal judge to issue an injunction to cause a cease and desist of a violation of a federal law; the other did not result in a violation of any law and yet it required no federal agency to force a cease and desist of the unwanted activity

One issue was documented to have cost the company tens of millions of dollars that the did not agree to; they other cost the company a few million or less which Management decided to spend to protect and benefit their employees

In your opinion the release of PPI data was worse, but the objective facts don't support your beliefs.

 

[Pi brat]

The two issues are different:
One was deemed to be illegal by a federal court; the other resulted in no legal action whatsoever

One action was the result of an intent to harm via illegal conduct; the other had no such intent, legal or illegal

One required a federal judge to issue an injunction to cause a cease and desist of a violation of a federal law; the other did not result in a violation of any law and yet it required no federal agency to force a cease and desist of the unwanted activity

One issue was documented to have cost the company tens of millions of dollars that the did not agree to; they other cost the company a few million or less which Management decided to spend to protect and benefit their employees

In your opinion the release of PPI data was worse, but the objective facts don't support your beliefs.

Both were a violation of company policies, were they not?

 

[Move2CLT]

Did he? Did he have access to my S.S.#? If so, then yes, but I've seen no finding that he did.

Show me the facts and get back to me.

Neither did AoL.

Company investigation proved. It.

 

[Pi brat]

Neither did AoL.

Company investigation proved. It.

What planet do you live on? The company investigation proved that a document with pilot S.S.#s was given by an ACP to AOL. Period. You are wrong over and over and over again.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Both were a violation of company policies, were they not?

Off the top of my head, I would say yes but I don't have policy manuals in front of me to confirm that. You'll notice in most policies that a certain offense will say something like "violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action up to and including possible termination". The point is that the policy almost always leaves the choice up to management to decide if the investment made in the employee up to that point is worth throwing away over a policy violation or if ridding the Company of documented bad apple is the best choice. If you don't want to get fired, then don't violate company policy. If you do and you don't lose your job, then you might accept the fact that Management has shown you grace even if it is in their best interest not to terminate (not losing a well-trained and otherwise valuable employee).

Now which of these two events and the employees behind them do you think left Hogg, Bular, Isom, Kirby and Parker more upset and wanting a "pound of flesh" from? The guys who got USAIT to provide an export of non-protected information along with unknowingly hidden PPI data in violation of Company policy, or they guys who were part of an effort to try and illegally gain negotiating leverage and further putting the Company in harm's way if they accepted a DOH seniority list just to get operations back on track; a move which may have costs hundreds of millions of dollars in a west lawsuit not to mention the cost of operational poor performance from the east malcontents. If these Executives got their hair on fire over one of these two events, I GUARANTEE you they were immeasurably more upset with the illegal work action than with the PPI information and policy breach. The cost and hassle and customer impact was far worse with the guys who thought not completing their required DL was somehow going to force Management's hand. These two FOs lost big time and deservedly so.

 

[Move2CLT]

What planet do you live on? The company investigation proved that a document with pilot S.S.#s was given by an ACP to AOL. Period. You are wrong over and over and over again.

They were in a hidden column that was PW protected.

Youre clueless over and over and over again.

Grow some stones.

 

[luvn737s]

Do you KNOW for sure that the pilots terminated were actually participating in the job action? Do you have complete faith in our flight ops managers(you know, the guys that are so maligned by west pilots at just about every PHX crew news) that out of the 100+ guys that didn't finish their DL on time, including a west guy, they got the 2 that were on a job action? I don't. Is there any chance that these 2 guys were innocent bystanders? Would be really bad for them and their families if they were, sort of like the innocent C18 pilots and their families that got beaten up because a few idiots thought making thousands of phone calls would bring a union to it's knees. And as for Wells, I don't know I wasn't there, but I don't think you were either and until I'm given a reason I will trust her more than our current managers who just want their bonuses.

I have some people that are close to me that have been in management at this company. I have seen very clear acts that were not as they seems on the outside. Scapegoats. I'm sure it happens at every company, but it does't make it right.

I do agree that the issues are different and I think the release of SS#s was worse than not finishing DL, even if the DL was done intentionally. There was a published penalty for that-you don't get paid. Do you really think those 2 guys cost this company millions of dollars by not being current for a day or 2?

BTW, In the months leading up to May 2011 I heard several guys say they didn't do their DL UNTIL the last minute to "mess with the company". I never heard a single pilot advocate not finishing. I disagreed with them, and told them that it really just messed with a secretary, and beyond that, I'd be the guy that forgot and didn't finish.

Hmm, 1800 west pilots were equally delinquent in their non-payment of dues, but some were singled out for termination, while others were not. If you are saying the company unfairly picked on the DL DeLinquents, then why not hold USAPA to the same standard? USAPA should have demanded that every pilot delinquent in dues be terminated the same day.

Unless the deal made in the backroom prevented it.

Personally, I would have gone after this issue in a law suit and enjoyed the accompanying delay rather than running with Addington. But that's just me. I like money.

 

[Pi brat]

They were in a hidden column that was PW protected.

Youre clueless over and over and over again.

Grow some stones.

I don't remember any mention of PW protection for the S.S.#s. Johnson's letter speaks of the addresses and #s being in hidden columns and they found and used those, why not the #s? How do you know that? Did you have access to the data?

 

[usfliboi]

They were in a hidden column that was PW protected.

Youre clueless over and over and over again.

Grow some stones.

Not one post hear gets any of you closer to a solution to the issues. In fact many are the very reason our pilot group are where they are today. Pathetic, childish...and the adjectives keep a flowin!