US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Hmm, 1800 west pilots were equally delinquent in their non-payment of dues, but some were singled out for termination, while others were not. If you are saying the company unfairly picked on the DL DeLinquents, then why not hold USAPA to the same standard? USAPA should have demanded that every pilot delinquent in dues be terminated the same day.

Unless the deal made in the backroom prevented it.

I asked that very question at an early USAPA meeting as it appeared to me that they were targeting certain west pilots only. It's been a while, but I believe the company left it to them to decide who to send letters to. I told them that to single out any west pilot was wrong and the policy needed to be applied evenly, across east and west. Isn't that what they have done for the last few years?

 

[Pi brat]

Off the top of my head, I would say yes but I don't have policy manuals in front of me to confirm that. You'll notice in most policies that a certain offense will say something like "violation of this policy will result in disciplinary action up to and including possible termination". The point is that the policy almost always leaves the choice up to management to decide if the investment made in the employee up to that point is worth throwing away over a policy violation or if ridding the Company of documented bad apple is the best choice. If you don't want to get fired, then don't violate company policy. If you do and you don't lose your job, then you might accept the fact that Management has shown you grace even if it is in their best interest not to terminate (not losing a well-trained and otherwise valuable employee).

Now which of these two events and the employees behind them do you think left Hogg, Bular, Isom, Kirby and Parker more upset and wanting a "pound of flesh" from? The guys who got USAIT to provide an export of non-protected information along with unknowingly hidden PPI data in violation of Company policy, or they guys who were part of an effort to try and illegally gain negotiating leverage and further putting the Company in harm's way if they accepted a DOH seniority list just to get operations back on track; a move which may have costs hundreds of millions of dollars in a west lawsuit not to mention the cost of operational poor performance from the east malcontents. If these Executives got their hair on fire over one of these two events, I GUARANTEE you they were immeasurably more upset with the illegal work action than with the PPI information and policy breach. The cost and hassle and customer impact was far worse with the guys who thought not completing their required DL was somehow going to force Management's hand. These two FOs lost big time and deservedly so.

You don't need the manuals in front of you. Go listen to the latest PHX crew news and read the Johnson letter.

It's your premise that with the slow down the company alleged it and was able to prove it in front of a federal judge, resulting in an injunction, so it must be true, right? Well, in this case the principles admit to the disclosure of the document. The company hired an outside law firm to investigate and that investigation came to the conclusion that the pilots violated company policy, that information that was supposed to be protected was distributed to those that should not have had it, but it did not rise to the level that USAPA claimed. Parker says that the ACPs actions directly cost the company millions of dollars. So with you logic of believing the company about the job action, you must believe this. Now, although the job action cost the company some money(I doubt the amount they said, how did we come in at analysts predictions if it did?) the direct actions of the F/Os cost the company nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. As a matter of fact, I predict that they get their jobs back, with pay, so firing them cost the company.

You ask which one wanted the ops guys wanting more flesh, and I agree with you there. I agree because the job action had the potential to mess up their play ground and affect their bonus checks, a few million over the numbers didn't.

Given your religious beliefs I really don't get this one: "These two FOs lost big time and deservedly so." You do not know for sure that these two guys didn't just make a mistake and forgot to finish, do you? If they made a mistake, it is "deservedly so". I would think you would seek real fairness and justice, not what fits the company's line and the standard anti-east line. Have you ever made a mistake? Would you like to be a scapegoat? Let he who is without sin...............

 

[Pi brat]

Here's just a quick blurb about the 2nd quarter 2011, where the bulk of the "millions of damages" would have occurred:

US Airways Group, Inc. Chairman and CEO Doug Parker stated, “We are pleased to report a profit for the second quarter 2011 – particularly in spite of a 47 percent year-over-year increase in fuel price. Overall demand for our services remained strong during the quarter with revenues up more than ten percent, while our mainline unit cost excluding special items, fuel and profit sharing increased only one percent.

“Looking forward, our team is doing an excellent job of managing through a challenging environment and we believe their efforts combined with continued capacity discipline, revenue management and cost discipline have us well positioned for the future.”

Revenues up over 10% while costs ex fuel were up only 1%. Dang, maybe they shouldn't have gotten the injunction! ;-)

Here's one for 3rd quarter:

US Airways Group, Inc. Chairman and CEO Doug Parker stated, "We are pleased to report a third quarter 2011 profit, particularly given the 44 percent year-over-year increase in fuel price. Customer demand continues to be strong as evidenced by the highest third quarter revenue and total revenue per ASM in Company history. In addition, our employees have remained focused on controlling costs and continue to deliver outstanding results. Our third quarter mainline unit cost excluding fuel, special items and profit sharing was up only 1.7 percent, despite a 0.6 percent reduction in ASMs.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You don't need the manuals in front of you. Go listen to the latest PHX crew news and read the Johnson letter.

It's your premise that with the slow down the company alleged it and was able to prove it in front of a federal judge, resulting in an injunction, so it must be true, right? Well, in this case the principles admit to the disclosure of the document. The company hired an outside law firm to investigate and that investigation came to the conclusion that the ACP violated company policy, that information that was supposed to be protected was distributed to those that should not have had it, but it did not rise to the level that USAPA claimed. Parker says that the ACPs actions directly cost the company millions of dollars. So with you logic of believing the company about the job action, you must believe this. Now, although the job action cost the company some money(I doubt the amount they said, how did we come in at analysts predictions if it did?) the direct actions of the F/Os cost the company nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. As a matter of fact, I predict that they get their jobs back, with pay, so firing them cost the company.

You ask which one wanted the ops guys wanting more flesh, and I agree with you there. I agree because the job action had the potential to mess up their play ground and affect their bonus checks, a few million over the numbers didn't.

Given your religious beliefs I really don't get this one: "These two FOs lost big time and deservedly so." You do not know for sure that these two guys didn't just make a mistake and forgot to finish, do you? If they made a mistake, it is "deservedly so". I would think you would seek real fairness and justice, not what fits the company's line and the standard anti-east line. Have you ever made a mistake? Would you like to be a scapegoat? Let he who is without sin...............

I never said the release of PPI did not cost the company money; in fact I agreed that it did. I never said I approved of the actions which resulted in a violation of company policy and cost several million dollars just to clean up the mess. I never said management is not or should not be upset with this. And, I never said that the people involved deserved to keep their jobs. If Management decided to terminate them I believe that they would be equally justified in doing so. Still, I don't believe that intent to harm was ever proven and I also believe that Management has the choice in both cases to decide who to retain and who to terminate. All policy violators can be justifiably terminated, but obviously not all are.

Everyone makes mistakes and certainly no one is without sin. Sometimes I regret that the Apostle Paul took on the title of "Chief of Sinners" when I feel fairly certain I have failed in many ways well beyond what Paul might be guilty of. That being said, I believe there are earth-bound consequences for making mistakes or committing sin. I don't believe the government or other ruling authorities should pardon Christians who ask for forgiveness while exacting the full measure of the law on non-Christians who do not. If a Christian robs a bank or commits an even more violent crime, he/she may easily receive forgiveness from God, but that doesn't mean He will come down and free them from the earthly consequences of their mistakes. A person can be a convicted felon and also be a Christian behind bars or even on death row. If a self-avowed Christian was hours or minutes away from being executed, you wouldn't find me advocating for his/her release anymore than I would advocate for the release of a non-Christian because I believe in the rule of law and the government's authority to ensure lawbreakers are punished accordingly.

So the two pilots, terminated for failing to complete their required DL and were rightly or wrongly lumped in with the rest of those who intentionally sought to engage in an illegal work campaign, were justifiably terminated. Will they return? I don't know. Should they? Only if they can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that this was truly an innocent error not associated with the illegal slowdown. That seems to be a tough burden of proof given the warnings Management reportedly gave out, going out of their way to ensure no required DL lapses occurred. Should others be terminated likewise? Absolutely from an objective viewpoint, but not being a person with firsthand knowledge I can only speculate as to why they were spared. If good employees make an innocent mistake and demonstrate remorse along with a willingness to improve or not make the same mistake again, then it makes little sense to let them go for a single error. On the other hand, if they show no remorse, retain an adversarial or anti-company attitude, or are deficient in other performance areas, then I would see no reason not to take the occasion of their termination offense and just let them go. If a person doesn't respect their job enough to not violate policy, then they must fall upon the mercy of Management and hope that someone will give them a second change to do things better next time around. If the Manager doesn't believe that kind of rehabilitation is possible, then its in everyone's best interest to hand them their walking papers.

 

[Claxon]

Only you easties.

The rest of us see this like any other individual with a shred of ethics would see it.

Were the western principles and ethics carried to the Australian continent?

 

[Claxon]

Neither did AoL.

Company investigation proved. It.

Franke Air's investigations carry as much import as an Enron internal financial audit.

 

[luvn737s]

I asked that very question at an early USAPA meeting as it appeared to me that they were targeting certain west pilots only. It's been a while, but I believe the company left it to them to decide who to send letters to. I told them that to single out any west pilot was wrong and the policy needed to be applied evenly, across east and west. Isn't that what they have done for the last few years?

No, USAPA should have pressed for immediate termination of all delinquent dues payers, or pressed for none of them to be disnissed and handled it internally like adults.

 

[luvn737s]

That being said, I believe there are earth-bound consequences for making mistakes or committing sin. I don't believe the government or other ruling authorities should pardon Christians who ask for forgiveness while exacting the full measure of the law on non-Christians who do not. If a Christian robs a bank or commits an even more violent crime, he/she may easily receive forgiveness from God, but that doesn't mean He will come down and free them from the earthly consequences of their mistakes. A person can be a convicted felon and also be a Christian behind bars or even on death row. If a self-avowed Christian was hours or minutes away from being executed, you wouldn't find me advocating for his/her release anymore than I would advocate for the release of a non-Christian because I believe in the rule of law and the government's authority to ensure lawbreakers are punished accordingly.

Repentance restores the relationship but doesn't remove the repercussions.

 

[Pi brat]

Still, I don't believe that intent to harm was ever proven and I also believe that Management has the choice in both cases to decide who to retain and who to terminate. All policy violators can be justifiably terminated, but obviously not all are.

Sigh. So, if I operate a vehicle in a manner that violates rules, and I kill someone, it's okay, because I didn't mean to. Got it. The company found that they didn't do it with the intention of harming anyone, but the potential was there, we don't know that it didn't do any harm and cost the company a lot more money than the DL.

Of course management has the right, but I believe they should have some responsibility to do it fairly, and I don't have faith in ours to do that.

I'm sure a lot of Jews bought the "Jesus is guilty claim" from their "management".

 

[Pi brat]

No, USAPA should have pressed for immediate termination of all delinquent dues payers, or pressed for none of them to be disnissed and handled it internally like adults.

I agreed with you! I was actually a member at the time, unlike most westies and tried to do something about it. What the hell do you want? You guys are amazing.

 

[Pi brat]

Repentance restores the relationship but doesn't remove the repercussions.

Absolutely. I am looking forward to the request for forgiveness from those that wronged us.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Absolutely. I am looking forward to the request for forgiveness from those that wronged us.

Are you referring to those who acquired home addresses of east pilots or something else entirely?

 

[Pi brat]

Are you referring to those who acquired home addresses of east pilots or something else entirely?

That's it, but don't forget my S.S.#. I don't trust the individuals that had access to it, and I have reasons.

 

[VAflyGal]

Off the subject, but I just wanted to extend thanks to those pilots who actually back up the flight attendant agreement and FOM procedure when a gate agent tries to deny boarding to a flight attendant for W&B which is a violation of our contract.

And the the d-wad who didn't have the decency to take care of someone trying to get home and left her with a few seats open on the plane.... well... we've got your number. Jerk.

 

[cleardirect]

Both were a violation of company policies, were they not?

I just read Johnson's letter again. Where does it say they violated company policy?

How do you know they violated company policy? Is is a violation to ask for a seniority list? They are listed on wings now. Is that a violation?