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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Ok. I read it the other way because it seemed like the context of the post was compromise, which as applied to the West means come off the Nic. If there was a way to avert this mess, then I'd be all for it. The problem is that the founders of USAPA rigged our situation so seniority would become an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't think they had the foresight to see the long term, negative effects on the pilot group as a whole and even if they did, they wouldn't have cared. Rather, they saw it as nothing more than a necessary step to achieving the DOH cram-down. USAPA was only created for the purpose of benefitting one particular subgroup of Airways pilots at the expense of the West, East captains and 3rd listers. Nobody has been more dishonest in all of this than the founders of USAPA. They created a lynch-mob mentality that simply had no legal grounding. Hence, failure has been the result and frustration continued to creep. Nothing was working as was promised and the outlet was the illegal safety slow-down. Ironically, the permanent injunction is another layer of cement sealing DOH's fate every bit as much as Addington. If the company had little incentive to expose themselves to the risk of a hybrid DFR after Addington, they have absolutely no reason to align with DOH now given that LOA93 is written in stone, the 3% raise is dead (and should have been a victory for the East), and of course, a permanent injunction. Game, set, match. We either get a contract now or it'll be several more years if there is another merger. The Nicolau will be the list going forward, merger or no merger. That's the reality.


I love how you keep stating that there is no "West" to compromise with. That well due to the single carrier status, there isn't anyone to say, Ok we will move off the NIC, it's simply the NIC, as DOH is not going to pass muster, you must accept the NIC.


Reality of the whole situation though: If your group would sit down and come off the NIC with USAPA coming off DOH and something meeting in the middle. The Bylaws could be changed, West could agree to NOT file a DFR, and there would be a compromise and we could move on. BUT as you have for so long pointed out, if it isn't the NIC, expect a lawsuit to be filed. I'm pretty sure that's what you keep saying?
 
I love how you keep stating that there is no "West" to compromise with. That well due to the single carrier status, there isn't anyone to say, Ok we will move off the NIC, it's simply the NIC, as DOH is not going to pass muster, you must accept the NIC.


Reality of the whole situation though: If your group would sit down and come off the NIC with USAPA coming off DOH and something meeting in the middle. The Bylaws could be changed, West could agree to NOT file a DFR, and there would be a compromise and we could move on. BUT as you have for so long pointed out, if it isn't the NIC, expect a lawsuit to be filed. I'm pretty sure that's what you keep saying?
Shut up with this BS. There is no "group" in the west. I have only USAPA to represent me.

Why didn't your MC come off DOH when we were negotiating? Or during mediation? Or arbitration?

There is no west to decide whether or not I file a lawsuit. And it would only take one.

The Nic is it. Piedmont sees this as do many other east pilots. There is, and never will be, a compromise to the Nic. You take it as is or stay on LOA 93.

End of story.
 
Yes, but there are still those who spout the nonsense about keeping Cleary in place to ward off sanity. It's time to stop with the reverse psychology and begin applying real pressure to affect real change.

Or simply continue to be held hostage while waiting for the judge to rule unequivocably in favor of the west. Some folks want to make sure they are vindicated for their efforts, even if that means delaying or denying the gains they were fighting for.
You'll just have to wait and see how things shake out during the campaign. If you're going to be stuck with a "kinder and gentler" version of a DOH maniac, you might as well have the pure, uncut psycho Cleary version of things. He's utterly incapable of doing anything but self immolation. I fully understand what you're saying but a DOH guy is a DOH guy. Stick with the nut you know. :lol:
 
You'll just have to wait and see how things shake out during the campaign. If you're going to be stuck with a "kinder and gentler" version of a DOH maniac, you might as well have the pure, uncut psycho Cleary version of things. He's utterly incapable of doing anything but self immolation. I fully understand what you're saying but a DOH guy is a DOH guy. Stick with the nut you know. :lol:
Spot on!

Cleary completes me. He had me at "Seham is an awesome attorney and he will get us DOH and an industry leading contract." :lol:
 
I love how you keep stating that there is no "West" to compromise with. That well due to the single carrier status, there isn't anyone to say, Ok we will move off the NIC, it's simply the NIC, as DOH is not going to pass muster, you must accept the NIC.


Reality of the whole situation though: If your group would sit down and come off the NIC with USAPA coming off DOH and something meeting in the middle. The Bylaws could be changed, West could agree to NOT file a DFR, and there would be a compromise and we could move on. BUT as you have for so long pointed out, if it isn't the NIC, expect a lawsuit to be filed. I'm pretty sure that's what you keep saying?
With all that has gone on over the past 4+ years your would think that at the very least the issues would be understood by all. Guess not as we still have people, including Clearly thinking that the SLI negotiating table is still open to a re-do. If someone didn't understand the legal aspects of a DFR say back in 2005, you would think that things would be much clearer now after all that has gone one here.

If Management were willing to play that re-do game, then there would be two choices - 1) the NIC with no chance of a DFR or 2) a non-NIC list and roll the dice with a DFR by one or more west pilots. However, since Management has clearly stated that they don't believe it is lawful to accept a non-NIC list, then there is only one choice left baring a definitive resolution imposed by the courts - the NIC. There is a zero percent chance Management would consider any other list until the DJ has run the full course in the district court and any appeals courts. They would however close out section 22 with the NIC today if such was agreed to by USAPA. So it's the NIC now or wait for the courts to say it's the NIC once they sort out of the smoke screens thrown up by the USAPA counsel de jour.
 
I love how you keep stating that there is no "West" to compromise with. That well due to the single carrier status, there isn't anyone to say, Ok we will move off the NIC, it's simply the NIC, as DOH is not going to pass muster, you must accept the NIC.


Reality of the whole situation though: If your group would sit down and come off the NIC with USAPA coming off DOH and something meeting in the middle. The Bylaws could be changed, West could agree to NOT file a DFR, and there would be a compromise and we could move on. BUT as you have for so long pointed out, if it isn't the NIC, expect a lawsuit to be filed. I'm pretty sure that's what you keep saying?

Once again: Who has the legal right and authority to "come off the NIC"? Any one person (or group) that stands and declares that they will do just that has set themselves up for eternal litigation. NEWS: The Nicolau Seniority list IS THE COMPROMISE. Period. We must be visiting the BARGAINING step of the Kubler Ross model of the 5 phases of grief (again).

Sorry Crazy, but NO ONE is going to do that. No one has the right to do that. No one has the authority to do that. No one has the slightest inclination to do that because the Nicolau Seniority list is the COMPROMISE. USAPA has painted itself into a very small corner. The only way out is with a tentative agreement that was negotiated by USAPA and LCC. The only way out of a DFR is to produce a TA that has an unaltered Nicolau Seniority list. PERIOD.

Then, the only way to ratify said TA is with enough money that enough people decide that they will live with the money and the NIC. PERIOD.

It's ether that or separate operations @ RJ wages and eternal litigation. You can each pick in the upcoming elections: Vote with logic and common sense or vote with pure rage and emotion. See you in the voting booth!
 
Reality of the whole situation though: If your group would sit down and come off the NIC with USAPA coming off DOH and something meeting in the middle.
There can be no dual representation. USAPA holds a financial gun to my head to pay dues or be fired. I expect them to represent my interests in exchange for that power.
 
Nominations for union officers have been posted (and here I thought the Republican field was too large to begin with).



How many east posters here now feel that although Nicolau got it wrong, it is time for an exit strategy with regard to the seniority dispute/litigation (does Vietnam ring a bell)?

B

I'm just askin here.

84,

The East has been far quieter on this board than west.
IMO , it's because the 9th was clear on usapa options and east posters like myself have no desire to engage in their ( west ) hopeless arguments. Am content to just stay focused and avoid further " no win " negotiations some weak brothers may attempt to shove up my six.

FA
 
84,

The East has been far quieter on this board than west.
IMO , it's because the 9th was clear on usapa options and east posters like myself have no desire to engage in their ( west ) hopeless arguments. Am content to just stay focused and avoid further " no win " negotiations some weak brothers may attempt to shove up my six.

FA
Um ya, that's it.

Cleary drops a deuce when the company file for a DJ and the West has hopeless arguments.

Whatever.

Back to your bible.
 
Love the emotional responses, Kinda like if some guy finds a lottery ticket and goes to the state capital to cash in, only to find out it's a fake.....BUT I GOT ALL 7 numbers.


It's real simple, everyone wants a contract, just not under the terms of either's idea of a SLI. IF something was put in front of the west pilots that wasn't the NIC, and such they could live with, and that same situation was put in front of the East, and they could live with, AND no body filed any lawsuits......BOOM....the SLI would be finished. Then you could vote on your heralded Kirby contract your itchin to work under.

meanwhile the screams of.....we have no group...our group is usapa.....we aren't doing ANYTHING...we are sitting here innocent victims, taken hostage by the AFO club..etc etc is getting a little old.

Come up with a better solution to end the stalemate? Nope, didn't think so.....and if the DJ process goes against you. Then what are you going to do? Scream louder?
 
Once again: Who has the legal right and authority to "come off the NIC"? Any one person (or group) that stands and declares that they will do just that has set themselves up for eternal litigation.

It's ether that or separate operations @ RJ wages and eternal litigation. You can each pick in the upcoming elections: Vote with logic and common sense or vote with pure rage and emotion. See you in the voting booth!


You have the legal right to NOT file a DFR lawsuit, as does every other west pilot, in the face of an agreement they can live with.


I personally adjusted to RJ wages years ago, and quite happy with them. Will be even happier with the soon to be upgrade.... Thank you.

How's that West flying? errr....east coast flying I mean...
 
Love the emotional responses, Kinda like if some guy finds a lottery ticket and goes to the state capital to cash in, only to find out it's a fake.....BUT I GOT ALL 7 numbers.


It's real simple, everyone wants a contract, just not under the terms of either's idea of a SLI. IF something was put in front of the west pilots that wasn't the NIC, and such they could live with, and that same situation was put in front of the East, and they could live with, AND no body filed any lawsuits......BOOM....the SLI would be finished. Then you could vote on your heralded Kirby contract your itchin to work under.

meanwhile the screams of.....we have no group...our group is usapa.....we aren't doing ANYTHING...we are sitting here innocent victims, taken hostage by the AFO club..etc etc is getting a little old.

Come up with a better solution to end the stalemate? Nope, didn't think so.....and if the DJ process goes against you. Then what are you going to do? Scream louder?

We had the process to a solution and it was executed as agreed.

And the DJ process will go against the west about as well as snapbacks went for you. :lol:

Maybe you guys can all be whistleblowers. :lol:
 
Love the emotional responses, Kinda like if some guy finds a lottery ticket and goes to the state capital to cash in, only to find out it's a fake.....BUT I GOT ALL 7 numbers.


It's real simple, everyone wants a contract, just not under the terms of either's idea of a SLI. IF something was put in front of the west pilots that wasn't the NIC, and such they could live with, and that same situation was put in front of the East, and they could live with, AND no body filed any lawsuits......BOOM....the SLI would be finished. Then you could vote on your heralded Kirby contract your itchin to work under.

meanwhile the screams of.....we have no group...our group is usapa.....we aren't doing ANYTHING...we are sitting here innocent victims, taken hostage by the AFO club..etc etc is getting a little old.

Come up with a better solution to end the stalemate? Nope, didn't think so.....and if the DJ process goes against you. Then what are you going to do? Scream louder?


Agreed!
 
I personally adjusted to RJ wages years ago, and quite happy with them. Will be even happier with the soon to be upgrade.... Thank you.
Doug says thank you for staying underwater to keep the company afloat.

You're happy and Doug's happy.
 
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