US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

The usapa legal library is briefs, filings, and so forth without any update spin. Although I suppose there could be some slight manipulation by leaving select things out. The 4th Circuit upholding the Rico dismissal with predjudice is not there, for example. I don't know if any other strategic omisssions are there or not though.

I think 1984 is a good sort, using his head and not taking anything from anyone as gospel. I saw a west poster knock him for a very level headed post because he was supposedly just an east guy that brought us usapa and that was that. With all due respect to that west poster, I'd suggest stopping, taking a deep breath and look a little deeper.

Everything with usapa is strategic ommisions.

Classic example, usapa's claim that a union can negotiate all sections of a contract. Well, that statement is true enough, but what they are omittng is that the union has to negotiate that contract for ALL the members of the class it represents.

As affirmed by the 9th in their.."We leave usapa free to bargain for ALL USAIRWAYS PILOTS, BOTH EAST AND WEST under the pain....yada..yada..yada... usapa then interprets that for its east lemmings and says..see right there the SCOTUS (not the 9th but the SCOTUS because they did not hear the case?) says "free to bargain...free to bargain....free to bargain...." we are right, we got the greenlight from the SCOTUS, we can bargain any way we please. When in reality, what they were told is they will get their azzez handed to them if they continue to persue this fools errand.

Not to mention they leave off the fact that the ### handing has been going on for the last 4 years by the company getting them to fly airplanes for the lowest pay in the entire industry, because they are "FREE TO BARGAIN".

 

[N924PS]

I love watching eastie battle eastie.

Any West posters:

Care to comment on or make a recommendation for any West Pilots who have accepted nominations?

 

[Pi brat]

Unlike USAPA ALPA complied with the Transition Agreement and had three East and West pilots on the JNC. The JNC had about 85% of the pilot's new contract complete over four years ago. In the spring of 2008 Scott Kirby joined the discussions, which began the "close out" phase to reach a TA.

Kirby provided the JNC the company's initial comprehensive proposal. In addition, Lyle Hogg told me the Board had authorized him to offer an additonal 3% pay raise to counter the ALPA JNC pay response and former MEC Chairman Jack Stephan tetified under oath at the Addington trial the company was willing to offer another 7% to 10% in pay raises over the West rates (this would have given East pilots a 21% to 24% raise over four years ago).

When USAPA was elected as the pilot's Union the NAC was created consisting of three former furloughees, Paul DiOrio, Dean Collelo, and Jeff Davis, un TA'ed the entire contract.

To read a detailed side by side comprehensive comparison of what USAPA gave up from ALPA negotiations click here.

And, to review actual ALPA documents on contract discussions click here and then look at entry numbers 211, 212, 215, 217, 218, 220, 221, 222, and 223.

And east ALPA left JNC talks. Scott Kirby disavowed the extra percentages and said that what was on the table was the Kirby.

 

[Pi brat]

When in reality, what they were told is they will get their azzez handed to them if they continue to persue this fools errand.

I think you may be taking a little liberty with that one.

 

[Metroyet]

The big question is does the east really feel the same way? The west is betting they don't. I don't know, but I do see value in getting a definitive answer from the last stop. Otherwise we will place blame back and worth for the rest of our careers, just as we have with LOA 93.

The East has the blame gene firmly planted in their DNA. No matter WHAT happens, it will be somebody elses fault. The East will never, EVER, EEEEVVVVVVEEEEERRRRRRR accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, I did predict that count 1 was the only logical ruling Silver could make. Will she be logical, I don't know but she certainly seems to be no-nonsense in her approach to moving the case forward in a legal context. So, while I'm not saying I know or am 100% certain what she will do, I do think that accepting count 1 is far and away the most likely ruling she will make.

If and when it is legally affirmed that the NIC is the only list for S22, then the courts will be out of the process. Assuming that happens and USAPA reaches a NIC-inclusive TA with Management, then the process is no different than if there was no seniority dispute at all. If the MIGS reject the TA, then it goes back to mediated negotiations. If the mediator determines that negotiations have reached an impasse, the parties will either get parked or released to self-help. That's all the RLA allows for and if the issue is one that no one in the process has any control over (seniority), then the outcome will be parked in status quo or self-help. However, I have serious doubts that the east pilots would be able to amass enough support to prevent the TA from passing under that scenario. Ten years is a long time to go without any contract improvements and holding out for the unattainable will be the mindset of only a few zealots once that scenario is staring them in the face. That's the way I see it anyway.

Logic is a funny thing. Is is shaped by the person. Have you ever heard the joke about the professor of logic that goes into a bar?

You may be completely right in what you lay out, but I don't see the logic in it based on what has happened. First, seniority lists have been changed and survived DFR, that's a fact. So with that information we can conclude that yes, a union does have the right to renegotiate a seniority list. Next, it seems that for that to happen the union has to have a legitimate reason for doing that. The Wake jury said that USAPA didn't come up with a good enough reason, but the 9th said "Not so fast, you are too early to decide. We don't know what the negotiating process would bring". That's where I have trouble with the company's filing. They have not negotiated. As Szymanski said, the company doesn't have to say yes, and they have the duty to not accept something illegal. Had they taken the position that they had to negotiate maybe we could have come up with some other solution. Who knows, maybe even one that kept the Nic order, but made other changes that would help the east accept it. The company didn't negotiate and had enjoyed the real windfall from this fight.

With all of that, my logic would have Judge Silver say "You have to negotiate. That's clear. But you don't have to agree to anything and so I cannot give you immunity. If you think a DOH hire list would be a definite DFR violation, then grow a pair, say no and come up with another solution". But I have shown my logic doesn't always follow the courts.

I think having the judge dictate the Nic could end up being more costly for the company. If they cannot come off the Nic those of us affected by it on the east will need a better economic package to vote yes. That will take away from the amount available for the west and those that don't get a windfall from the Nic may not be inclined to vote yes, especially if they might lose their base. So, as you said that could lead to self-help. Wasn't that one of the "fears" thrown out but the company and the west in the first place?

 

[Pi brat]

The East has the blame gene firmly planted in their DNA. No matter WHAT happens, it will be somebody elses fault. The East will never, EVER, EEEEVVVVVVEEEEERRRRRRR accept responsibility for their actions.

That is almost as good as your "There is no way Cleary will not run...........". Every east pilot. How did US Air, Piedmont, PSA, Empire, Eastern, and Trump all find those pilots with that DNA? What is in your DNA that makes you feel the way you do about a company that you don't work for?

 

[fodase]

Any West posters:

Care to comment on or make a recommendation for any West Pilots who have accepted nominations?

Ferguson, koontz, holmes. These guys are the only smart choices for both east and west. I know it will be hard for an eastie to vote for these guys but if you take emotion out of it and look at who is running they are the clear choice. This election is not about the Nic., it's about how we want to be represented going into the next merger, do we want smart capable people or the same old guard that gave us usapa as it is today?

 

[N924PS]

Ferguson, koontz, holmes. These guys are the only smart choices for both east and west. I know it will be hard for an eastie to vote for these guys but if you take emotion out of it and look at who is running they are the clear choice. This election is not about the Nic., it's about how we want to be represented going into the next merger, do we want smart capable people or the same old guard that gave us usapa as it is today?

Thank you. I agree with you that voting for certain East candidates can only mean more of the same for years to come.

Too bad Judge Silver can't rule before the election cycle ends......

 

[Pi brat]

Thank you. I agree with you that voting for certain East candidates can only mean more of the same for years to come.

Too bad Judge Silver can't rule before the election cycle ends......

I know you asked for west opinions, but may I add mine? If not, stop reading here.

I haven't seen anything from Steve Sevier, so I don't know about him, but the rest of the east is pretty clear.

As far as the west, I may vote for Vasin for appeal board, but that's it. As for the others, they showed their stripes after SFO ruled. They were happy with the legal process until then. After that, not so much. There was an effort building between some on the east and west to recall Cleary and Mowery, but they pulled out, saying that those guys were best for the west pilots. That said all that needed to be said. They absolutely do not care about the damage done as long as they get the Nic.

 

[Move2CLT]

That is almost as good as your "There is no way Cleary will not run...........". Every east pilot. How did US Air, Piedmont, PSA, Empire, Eastern, and Trump all find those pilots with that DNA? What is in your DNA that makes you feel the way you do about a company that you don't work for?

Cleary is running.

He's pulling a Putin and calling himself McKee/Javurek.

Don't ever think Cleary is gone.

 

[Pi brat]

Cleary is running.

He's pulling a Putin and calling himself McKee/Javurek.

Don't ever think Cleary is gone.

Ah, another boogie man.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Logic is a funny thing. Is is shaped by the person. Have you ever heard the joke about the professor of logic that goes into a bar?

You may be completely right in what you lay out, but I don't see the logic in it based on what has happened. First, seniority lists have been changed and survived DFR, that's a fact. So with that information we can conclude that yes, a union does have the right to renegotiate a seniority list. Next, it seems that for that to happen the union has to have a legitimate reason for doing that. The Wake jury said that USAPA didn't come up with a good enough reason, but the 9th said "Not so fast, you are too early to decide. We don't know what the negotiating process would bring". That's where I have trouble with the company's filing. They have not negotiated. As Szymanski said, the company doesn't have to say yes, and they have the duty to not accept something illegal. Had they taken the position that they had to negotiate maybe we could have come up with some other solution. Who knows, maybe even one that kept the Nic order, but made other changes that would help the east accept it. The company didn't negotiate and had enjoyed the real windfall from this fight.

With all of that, my logic would have Judge Silver say "You have to negotiate. That's clear. But you don't have to agree to anything and so I cannot give you immunity. If you think a DOH hire list would be a definite DFR violation, then grow a pair, say no and come up with another solution". But I have shown my logic doesn't always follow the courts.

I think having the judge dictate the Nic could end up being more costly for the company. If they cannot come off the Nic those of us affected by it on the east will need a better economic package to vote yes. That will take away from the amount available for the west and those that don't get a windfall from the Nic may not be inclined to vote yes, especially if they might lose their base. So, as you said that could lead to self-help. Wasn't that one of the "fears" thrown out but the company and the west in the first place?

The relevant facts upon which logical reasoning and sound conclusions are inescapable in this case:

At trial, the jury found that USAPA had violated its DFR to the West Pilot class because it “cast aside the result of an internal seniority arbitration solely to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots,” and “failed to prove that any legitimate union objective motivated its acts.” (Sep. Stmnt. ¶ 41.)

Following the US Airways/America West merger in 2005, the East Pilots and West Pilots, through each of their ALPA MECs, and separate from and in addition to ALPA as the international organization, agreed that “[t]he seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance.” (Sep. Stmnt. ¶ 10.) And, under ALPA Merger Policy, any seniority arbitration award “shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration.” (Sep. Stmnt. ¶ 11.)

It is well-settled under the RLA that, USAPA – as the successor to ALPA as the collective bargaining representative for the East Pilots and West Pilots – inherited the rights and obligations set forth in the collectively-bargained Transition Agreement. See, e.g., Association of Flight Attendants v. United Airlines, 71 F.3d 915, 919 (D.C. Cir. 1995); Association of Flight Attendants v. USAir, 24 F.3d 1432, 1438-39 (D.C. Cir. 1994).

In prior litigation between the West Pilots and USAPA, District Judge Neil V.
Wake reviewed the relevant decisions and interpreted this DFR standard to mean that
USAPA must have “some legitimate union objective” in advocating for a non-Nicolau
seniority list, and that “by adopting and promoting a certain integrated seniority list for no reason other than to favor one group of employees at the expense of another,” USAPA had breached its DFR

In determining “whether or not the principles of duty of fair representation permit USAPA to make a proposal to change the transition agreement and to present a list other than Nicolau” (See Hollinger Decl. Exh. G at 32:24-33:1), US Airways submits that the salient material facts are undisputed, and that the Court is therefore in a position to definitively rule on the defendants’ cross-motions for summary judgment as to Counts 1 and 2 of Complaint.

The Transition Agreement is a collective bargaining agreement because it is “an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees.” Id.; see also SOF at ¶ 3. As such, it was neither altered nor canceled when the bargaining unit voted ALPA out and USAPA in. Consequently, all its provisions remain in effect until changed, not just those provisions agreeable to the East Pilot majority. And any efforts by USAPA to make a new contract changing such provisions are constrained by its duty of fair representation.

************

Nope; never heard the joke, but then I don't hear a lot of jokes and rarely remember the ones I do hear.

The Company knows it cannot negotiate S22 with USAPA without a release of liability from the district court. That's why they haven't touched S22 since USAPA was certified and why the only way forward was through the DJ.

When has a binding arbitration seniority list been changed for a legitimate union objective and then survived a DFR challenge?

Silver cannot or will not throw the Company out on it's own to remain at risk of a self-help release over S22 or to face the threat of a hybrid collusion lawsuit. She has already indicated without any room for doubt that the Company faces real harm over this issue presented by Siegel as a "Hobson's Choice". For her to turn around now and say "go figure it out on your own" would be to contradict her own previous ruling on the MTD. Since that is not going to happen, she will need to rule on Counts 1 & 2 and could very likely do this in summary judgement fashion. The inescapable and mostly undisputed facts presented above will lead to Count 1 being affirmed and Count 2 being rejected IMO.

The court could never remove all of the Company or USAPA's risk over being released to self-help. The Company didn't ask the court to produce a JCBA or to circumvent the RLA in this matter. Rather they simply asked for a legal resolution to the most pressing issue in play over the past five years...would a non-NIC seniority list be illegal according to the RLA given the specific facts in this case. Once that is settled (again), negotiations will proceed without judicial intervention or oversight.

 

[Move2CLT]

Any West posters:

Care to comment on or make a recommendation for any West Pilots who have accepted nominations?

This is how you vote if you want to move forward. It means accepting the Nic and allowing these guys to lead you. Your peers out east have failed you on numerous occasions.

It's time.

Ferguson
Koontz
Holmes

Vasin
Iranpour
O'Neil

 

[Move2CLT]

Ah, another boogie man.

Wow Pi, I thought you less naive.

Any other eastie disagree with me?

Didn't think so.