US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

While we argue back and forth about big airplanes and little airplanes, the true big boys make fun of the whole lot of us.

Yep. While we draw lines in the sand even a bankrupt company can offer better. And each side thinks they are so smart and winning. We are all losing.

 

[Pi brat]

Are you listening to yourselves? A unified pilot group is essential to meeting your goals.

"We will have an industry leading contract in 90 days." - USAPA

5 years later the pilot group has donated almost a billion dollars in lost wages and benefits to US Airways management, and seems puzzled at to why the NMB won't help more with negotiations. Confused as to why the company won't negotiate in good faith.

Sad, sad, sad.

Sad indeed, but you guys are okay with that, right? That's what MSU has said, he was good watching it burn down.

 

[nic4us]

They did bring something to the merger, the right to move into a vacated slot prior to any outside pilot. Had we been staffed properly, or even as the west was, they would have been back. If Odell was working for a growing, thriving company, why is he furloughed today? Seems that thriving, kick butt airline would have kept growing while the east was shrinking. I know what you will say, it's been beaten to death so you can save it. My response was to Clear who doubts that would make a difference. That's okay, because we will never know.

And, they retained that right in the Nic.

What they did not bring was a right to leapfrog active pilots from an aquiring airline.

Further, the right is not to move into a "vacated slot". Slots vacated are most likely the top slots vacated by the most senior who retire, medical out etc... The recall right is not to that slot, but the bottom slot of the list, and that is exactly what they retained in the Nic. Absent the merger, it is doubtful they would have been able to claim even that bottom slot.

Why is Odell furloughed today? Good question. The answere is that in order to make the merger feasible (i.e. to get value from the combined airline) routes and corporate structure had to evolve into a joint hybrid of the two combined airlines. However, we remain in a seperate configuration with the east taking all the benefit of the merger and pilot like Odell are paying the price by being furloughed out of seniority while that pilot who was furloughed takes Odells "slot" and not the one they formerly had a right to.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about what you thought of USAPA's plan, not necessarily the filings. Again, typical you, worthless crap stirring b.s.

You thought - II see your mistake now. No, you asked about the briefs and I answered what I thought of them - USAPA is setting itself up for another fall. They're still arguing about the Nic when the Nic isn't on trial. Both the Addington and now the DJ are about DFR. I said a long time ago that the courts give an arbitrator's decision the benefit of the doubt - they accept it as fair barring certain irregularities. The Nic had one chance to be on trial and USAPA blew that by not continuing with the suit that the MEC brought against the west MEC - too late to do it now. But USAPA continues to insist on rehearing the arbitration. I'm not even sure USAPA has a plan other than delay any decision as long as possible...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You thought - II see your mistake now. No, you asked about the briefs and I answered what I thought of them - USAPA is setting itself up for another fall. They're still arguing about the Nic when the Nic isn't on trial. Both the Addington and now the DJ are about DFR. I said a long time ago that the courts give an arbitrator's decision the benefit of the doubt - they accept it as fair barring certain irregularities. The Nic had one chance to be on trial and USAPA blew that by not continuing with the suit that the MEC brought against the west MEC - too late to do it now. But USAPA continues to insist on rehearing the arbitration. I'm not even sure USAPA has a plan other than delay any decision as long as possible...

Jim

I asked you a simple yes or no question. That's it. My God, do you have nothing better to do in retirement than come up with ways to cloud things? Take this: "I mistakenly thought that telling you what I thought of the filings would be a clue that maybe I read them" You thought, what you thought, a clue, that maybe. You still haven't said yes or no. Or you could say I've read the filing, or I've read some of them, or no I haven't read them, I've come to my conclusions by what I have read on here. No, you would rather run around in circles. With your arrogance, I don't assume that you have actually read anything to come up with an opinion.

 

[Pi brat]

Why is Odell furloughed today? Good question. The answere is that in order to make the merger feasible (i.e. to get value from the combined airline) routes and corporate structure had to evolve into a joint hybrid of the two combined airlines. However, we remain in a seperate configuration with the east taking all the benefit of the merger and pilot like Odell are paying the price by being furloughed out of seniority while that pilot who was furloughed takes Odells "slot" and not the one they formerly had a right to.

You left out the most important part of that equation. BOTH sides decided that they would use the TA and stay with separate ops.

And it is the bottom half of the AWA list that is doing the leapfrogging with the Nic.

 

[nic4us]

Negotiations and the NMB 02/03/2012
Negotiations and the NMB
We have received notice that the NMB will take a break from overseeing our contract negotiations. While we hope that it will not be a prolonged break, it is possible that the break could last several months. During this break in the NMB mediation process, nothing prevents us from continuing to negotiate with Management and, in fact, we have made a request to continue our monthly negotiating sessions.
So how did we get to this point?
It has been obvious to us for quite some time that Management's only interest is an agreement based on the Kirby Proposal from nearly five years ago. We have categorically rejected that proposal as being inadequate, as did our predecessor. In other words, it's not a matter of who is sitting across the table from them but the fact that, up to the present, they have been unwilling to agree on anything of substance other than an agreement that keeps US Airways pilots at the bottom of the industry in pay and benefits.
Why doesn't the NMB release us?
The NMB has indicated that there are still too many open issues on the table to declare an impasse and release the parties. While there may be many open issues, we don't feel that anyone can point the finger at USAPA for not doing our part to resolve the issues. Time and time again we have proposed solutions only to have Management reject them without presenting any new ideas of their own. Using sick leave as an example, we have proposed no less than eight different approaches to close out this section, and each time, Management has done nothing but insert their old language. We are more than frustrated by this tactic and had hoped the NMB would also share our frustration.
We envisioned that the process would strongly encourage each side to reach agreement on open items, but that has not occurred. We feel that USAPA has definitely made the effort to uphold our end of the process, but if the other side is unwilling to do the same then the only way to move the process is to capitulate (Kirby), and we have heard from you time and time again that this is not an option.
Where do we go from here?
While the NMB takes a break from our negotiations we seek to engage Management in two-party negotiations. You may ask why we would do that considering what we have said above, but if we don't try it's guaranteed that there won't be any progress. While these negotiations may appear to have hit an immovable brick wall, often the only way to take down a wall is to chip away at it piece by piece --understanding, however, that the best result occurs when both sides are working on the wall in unison. While the NMB has suggested that the pilots need to resolve the seniority issue before an agreement can be achieved, we continue to believe that the seniority dispute shouldn't hinder the pace of negotiations; there is plenty to talk about other than Section 22. From our point of view, there is no reason the parties cannot continue to work towards a full and complete agreement.
Now, more than ever, the unified resolve of the pilot group is essential to meeting our goals-- your goals. Stay strong, stay unified, and stay engaged.
Paul DiOrio - Chairman
704-340-5098
pdiorio@usairlinepilots.org
Dean Colello
704-307-9768
dcolello@usairlinepilots.org
Or reach us both at: NAC@usairlinepilots.org

Dear USAPA,

An un-unified pilot group as envisioned by USAPA's founders has no leverage, and no hope in hell of being released, despite their promises to the contray.

"Now, more than ever, the unified resolve of the pilot group is essential to meeting our goals-- your goals. Stay strong, stay unified, and stay engaged."

Are you listening to yourselves? A unified pilot group is essential to meeting your goals.

"We will have an industry leading contract in 90 days." - USAPA

5 years later the pilot group has donated almost a billion dollars in lost wages and benefits to US Airways management, and seems puzzled at to why the NMB won't help more with negotiations. Confused as to why the company won't negotiate in good faith.

Sad, sad, sad.

1. The NMB will not release you because you are a sham. Everybody gets it, including the NMB. Now go back to your hole at usapa and be glad you are getting FPL while pilots senior to you are furloughed.

2. Wasn't sick leave closed out when these morons opened every section. As I recall there was a good company incentive proposal that had a match for unused annual sick to be matched by a lump sum 401k contibution.

3. BLT, no they are not listening to themselves.....they are TALKING to themselves and nobody is listening.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I asked you a simple yes or no question.

Guess I'll have to make this so simple even a caveman would be able to understand - yes. That simple enough for you? If not, I'll see if I can find a caveman to interpret - claxon doesn't seem too busy...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

You left out the most important part of that equation. BOTH sides decided that they would use the TA and stay with separate ops.

And it is the bottom half of the AWA list that is doing the leapfrogging with the Nic.

BS flag!!

Prior to the Nic, both sides agreed to the TA, and using its methodology for combining the airlines.

Post Nic, the east busted the West's union, and hides behind seperate ops to scab West jobs in the combined airline.

 

[Ames]

They did bring something to the merger, the right to move into a vacated slot prior to any outside pilot. Had we been staffed properly, or even as the west was, they would have been back. If Odell was working for a growing, thriving company, why is he furloughed today? Seems that thriving, kick butt airline would have kept growing while the east was shrinking. I know what you will say, it's been beaten to death so you can save it. My response was to Clear who doubts that would make a difference. That's okay, because we will never know.

Your 16 year guy did move into a vacant slot prior to any outside pilot. They were recalled prior to third listers were they not? Can't say the same for west pilots accepting recall to the east. Odell is now furloughed because of the "merger". Had we not joined your happy mess he (and I) would be somewhere on the Delta seniority list. Everyone knows that Delta wouldn't merge with us because of the "rusthead" infection.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Plus, both sides didn't decide to stick with the TA anymore than the east pilots decided not to be paid $250/hour - the TA was a part of the contract so neither side had the option to ignore it. Didn't keep USAPA from trying when it was convenient though...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Who has done the most damage to east pilot careers? George Nicolau.

Here is the entire problem right here.

Nicolau did not do anything to damage east pilots careers.

Nicolau simply quantified the damages that had already taken place.

The problem with the east is they do not look at their own careers, they look at their West counterparts and say, if I could have that guys career at this company, everything would be better. Then they rationalize why it is okay for them to take that West pilots position in the company, completely disregarding the facts and circumstance that led us to the positions we hold at LCC.

 

[Metroyet]

My airline never went out of business. If it had, I might see your logic.

Really? Look up the stock symbol AAA and see what you find. How much were all those Metrojet options worth now? Where is HQ? PIT still the backbone of the Airline?

 

[Pi brat]

Really? Look up the stock symbol AAA and see what you find. How much were all those Metrojet options worth now? Where is HQ? PIT still the backbone of the Airline?

I'm not sure who AAA stock was. All American? I believe the last symbol was USA. But anyway, what does that have to do with my company going out of business. Under that logic AWA went out of business. The two companies merged into one, a little different in most people's book.

 

[Pi brat]

Here is the entire problem right here.

Nicolau did not do anything to damage east pilots careers.

Nicolau simply quantified the damages that had already taken place.

The problem with the east is they do not look at their own careers, they look at their West counterparts and say, if I could have that guys career at this company, everything would be better. Then they rationalize why it is okay for them to take that West pilots position in the company, completely disregarding the facts and circumstance that led us to the positions we hold at LCC.

That's you opinion and you are entitled to it, but I disagree. I see the east guys watching the west move up at a faster rate than they would have and saying that is not fair. That jump in relative position that EF would get from the Nic came from somewhere, and someone.

The problem as I see it is with both parties. There was a problem whether you think it should have been or not. BOTH sides decided to settle it their way, and here we are almost 7 years after the merger stuck with our lousy rates and still fighting tooth and nail.

It's funny that you say ENTIRE problem. Did you post a few day some issues you had with some of your west counterparts? Or was that someone else.