US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Excellent points. The west pilots instantly move down in seniority positions once the NIC-inclusive JCBA is ratified and then move up at the exact same pace from that point in time on as do their east counterparts on the same list.

You are kidding right? Positions do not equate relative position. You have seen the cleaned up Nic list that a west came up with that shows your relative position on the east/west list vs. the Nic, right? It doesn't happen that way at all. EF would jump from 87.59% on the west list to 75.65 on the Nic. Along the way jumping over guys that hold 737 captain, A330 F/O and 76I F/O, all of which are higher paying positions than what he holds even with LOA 93. Yeah, he drops raw numbers, all but the top east pilots do, but what he can buy with that number changes dramatically.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Someone outside of the company. So not west pilots, but Nicolau in effect made the east furloughees the ones "outside" side by putting every single west pilot in front of them.

Which is exactly what he was expected to do. The quote from the Parker & Lakefield Joint Statement of Labor Principles telegraphed that this would be the case:

Specifically, we would expect that no employee who already had been furloughed prior to the merger would be permitted to bump an active employee out of a job.

The TA detailed that the following principles were to be followed, and the NIC award conformed to these stated objectives:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

Preserve jobs (a.) means that those who had them on the day before the merger should have them the day after the SLI list is implemented. Maintaining or improving pre-merger pilot status (d.) means that every east and west pilot who had a job at the time of the merger should only stay in the same status or have an improved status with the combined list. Going backwards in AC type or from left to right seat would violate this requirement.

As for the rest, b.) windfall = no - pilots do retain their pre-merger status; c. maintain or improve pre-merger SOL - yes; those with a job, status and position retained the same or had a better outlook than pre-merger; those on furlough are included as they had zero SOL to be gained from US until the merger was complete and then only to return to the bottom of the list like all furloughs do; and e.) minimize detrimental changes to career expectation - yes, career expectations of active and furloughed pilots were preserved to minimize any detrimental effects as much as possible. I find it hard to imagine how any other list could have accomplished all of this with a greater degree of success - IMO, of course.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You are kidding right? Positions do not equate relative position. You have seen the cleaned up Nic list that a west came up with that shows your relative position on the east/west list vs. the Nic, right? It doesn't happen that way at all. EF would jump from 87.59% on the west list to 75.65 on the Nic. Along the way jumping over guys that hold 737 captain, A330 F/O and 76I F/O, all of which are higher paying positions than what he holds even with LOA 93. Yeah, he drops raw numbers, all but the top east pilots do, but what he can buy with that number changes dramatically.

FWIW, you will never find me referencing a "cleaned up" NIC list anyone may have come up with. My references to the NIC are always the unmodified version that was released as the binding award on May 1, 2007. Any discussion about how or what the NIC does some five or ten years after the award is totally irrelevant to the issue of how and why the NIC award was constructed as it was and how it met with all of the legal and contractual obligations given to the arbitration panel.

 

[Pi brat]

FWIW, you will never find me referencing a "cleaned up" NIC list anyone may have come up with. My references to the NIC are always the unmodified version that was released as the binding award on May 1, 2007. Any discussion about how or what the NIC does some five or ten years after the award is totally irrelevant to the issue of how and why the NIC award was constructed as it was and how it met with all of the legal and contractual obligations given to the arbitration panel.

How convenient.

 

[nic4us]

Then you must be in the top 3/4s or so of the captain list, because as of today most every other west pilot would have a greater relative position on the Nic than they would on a stand alone west list. EF's is over 10% greater. While their counterparts on the east would drop. And that gap gets bigger over time. It's just the way it is. I've posted that before on here and other boards and had people call me a liar. Well guess what? A west pilot cleaned up the Nic and made it really easy to see. Do you believe him if not me?

I have read your analysis, and it has a glaring falacy.

You are using post merger stand alone, which actually shows just how much the east has stolen from the West, and has nothing to do with an AWA standalone.

On the cleaned up Nic I am currently back to my original relative seniority, after seven years???? How long did it take for the top 3/4ths of the east list to instantly jump major percentage points in seniority,,,,oh,,wait,,,I answered my own question, with the Nic it was instantly.

Bottom line is the Nic is a fair compromise, the end result of arbitration, the only accepted list at LCC.


I believe both the guy who cleaned up the list and you. The difference is, he was just looking at numerical data, and you are looking at West pilots position and crying about how it ain't fair.

 

[nic4us]

You are kidding right? Positions do not equate relative position. You have seen the cleaned up Nic list that a west came up with that shows your relative position on the east/west list vs. the Nic, right? It doesn't happen that way at all. EF would jump from 87.59% on the west list to 75.65 on the Nic. Along the way jumping over guys that hold 737 captain, A330 F/O and 76I F/O, all of which are higher paying positions than what he holds even with LOA 93. Yeah, he drops raw numbers, all but the top east pilots do, but what he can buy with that number changes dramatically.

You said "jumping over guys that can hold", did you mean to say return to his rightful position that these scumbags stole from him 5 years ago??

Also, a pilot in the bottom 25% can hold 737 captain????

 

[CallawayGolf]

How convenient.

How could it be otherwise? As soon as you start comparing the award to anything after the merger you can no longer isolate the positive or negative changes that have occurred as a result of the merger from the static event which took place in 2005. The company and it's operational mix have changed because of the merger and the SLI award cannot be revised every time a route is added or subtracted or whatever else Management may decide to do with the combined airline. Once you engage in that activity you lose all credibility to discuss the merits of the award and how it preserved pre-merger status.

 

[Pi brat]

I have read your analysis, and it has a glaring falacy.

You are using post merger stand alone, which actually shows just how much the east has stolen from the West, and has nothing to do with an AWA standalone.

On the cleaned up Nic I am currently back to my original relative seniority, after seven years???? How long did it take for the top 3/4ths of the east list to instantly jump major percentage points in seniority,,,,oh,,wait,,,I answered my own question, with the Nic it was instantly.

Bottom line is the Nic is a fair compromise, the end result of arbitration, the only accepted list at LCC.


I believe both the guy who cleaned up the list and you. The difference is, he was just looking at numerical data, and you are looking at West pilots position and crying about how it ain't fair.

I'm not crying about anything, that's you with the scab, theft etc. I'm telling you to get you head out of your rear.

The east has less pilot bid positions than before the merger. Our TA set a blueprint for how flying would be distributed until we had a joint seniority list, joint contract and single operating certificate. We don't have a a joint contract, so we are separate and operating as such. The only difference is that the potential west windfall and top east pilot potential windfalls have been delayed.

 

[Pi brat]

How could it be otherwise? As soon as you start comparing the award to anything after the merger you can no longer isolate the positive or negative changes that have occurred as a result of the merger from the static event which took place in 2005. The company and it's operational mix have changed because of the merger and the SLI award cannot be revised every time a route is added or subtracted or whatever else Management may decide to do with the combined airline. Once you engage in that activity you lose all credibility to discuss the merits of the award and how it preserved pre-merger status.

Again, how convenient. At what date did Eric Ferguson's career expectations include A330 F/O?

 

[Pi brat]

You said "jumping over guys that can hold", did you mean to say return to his rightful position that these scumbags stole from him 5 years ago??

Also, a pilot in the bottom 25% can hold 737 captain????

The stealing, theft thing really make you look like an idiot.

No, he is at 70% of the east list. You are forgetting the drop he will take on the Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

Which is exactly what he was expected to do. The quote from the Parker & Lakefield Joint Statement of Labor Principles telegraphed that this would be the case:

I guess you missed the crew news where Parker clarified those statements. He said that the intention was that they would not return a pilot that was furloughed and furlough a pilot that wasn't. It didn't have to do with the final order of the seniority list. But, hey, cling to what make you feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Again, how convenient. At what date did Eric Ferguson's career expectations include A330 F/O?

Are you suggesting that the East guys on furloughed status in 2005 had any legitimate career expectation to include F/O on an A330 absent a merger? Seriously? I would venture to say that EF had a much more reasonable shot at that position as a future career expectation than someone who couldn't hold any seat at his airline which was also progressing inescapably toward liquidation absent a merger. I would say a guy employed and earning a paycheck at an airline that was not in its second bankruptcy in three years would have an immeasurably better career expectation than the guy who hasn't been drawing a paycheck despite being hired sixteen years earlier and knowing that the only shot he had to fly anything with his own company again was for it to stop hemorrhaging cash before the Grimm Reaper showed up to shut the place down. But that's just me, guess I'm a little too rational for your taste.

 

[Pi brat]

Are you suggesting that the East guys on furloughed status in 2005 had any legitimate career expectation to include F/O on an A330 absent a merger? Seriously? I would venture to say that EF had a much more reasonable shot at that position as a future career expectation than someone who couldn't hold any seat at his airline which was also progressing inescapably toward liquidation absent a merger. I would say a guy employed and earning a paycheck at an airline that was not in its second bankruptcy in three years would have an immeasurably better career expectation than the guy who hasn't been drawing a paycheck despite being hired sixteen years earlier and knowing that the only shot he had to fly anything with his own company again was for it to stop hemorrhaging cash before the Grimm Reaper showed up to shut the place down. But that's just me, guess I'm a little too rational for your taste.

I am suggesting that we both worked for also ran airlines. That's why we ended up together. As I told Ames, I don't remember anyone beating down your door. You have the benefit of hindsight yet you still can't see reality. On what planet did EF's career expectations include A330s to Europe? At least for our furloughed pilots it was a possibility.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I guess you missed the crew news where Parker clarified those statements. He said that the intention was that they would not return a pilot that was furloughed and furlough a pilot that wasn't. It didn't have to do with the final order of the seniority list. But, hey, cling to what make you feel warm and fuzzy.

Clarified does mean to change the meaning to something different. The NIC was constructed to ensure that very thing didn't happen. By placing the bottom active east and west pilots ahead of all furloughed pilots at the PID, there was no way for a furloughed pilot to then come and bump an active east or west pilot down to furloughed status. On the contrary, if he had placed a furloughed east pilot above any active east or west pilot, then the bump provision would be much more likely to have occurred. With the NIC as-is there is absolutely no way for that to happen, which I'll say again, is the way it should be - IMO.

 

[Metroyet]

Are you suggesting that the East guys on furloughed status in 2005 had any legitimate career expectation to include F/O on an A330 absent a merger? Seriously? I would venture to say that EF had a much more reasonable shot at that position as a future career expectation than someone who couldn't hold any seat at his airline which was also progressing inescapably toward liquidation absent a merger. I would say a guy employed and earning a paycheck at an airline that was not in its second bankruptcy in three years would have an immeasurably better career expectation than the guy who hasn't been drawing a paycheck despite being hired sixteen years earlier and knowing that the only shot he had to fly anything with his own company again was for it to stop hemorrhaging cash before the Grimm Reaper showed up to shut the place down. But that's just me, guess I'm a little too rational for your taste.

Let's not confuse anybody with the truth now.