US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Hi Pi...
I agree with the last part of your statement. "so here we are ..........." However my take on the "how we got here" is slightly different. It boils down to a matter of expectations. Let me give you an example. Did you get your Girl Scout Cookies yet? If the little Girl Scout's mommy that brought the box(es) of cookies to the door told my kid that he could not eat the cookies, and then I came home and told him that he could eat half of the box, he would be happy. If the little Girl Scout's mommy that brought the box(es) of cookies to the door told him that he could eat all the cookies himself, and then I came home and told him he could only eat half of the box, he'd be cheesed. It seems to me that the East pilots were told that they didn't have to share. Now they're cheesed. Enjoy your Girl Scout cookies!

I agree. Happiness=reality/expectations. This why the west was generally happier with the Nic than the east. The real issue is whether the expectations were realistic. You guys say no, ours say yes. But, beating someone over the head over and over again rarely makes them see thing differently. Look at me, I haven't convinced you guys of anything. I say acknowledge each sides POV and find an answer. It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

 

[traderjake]

It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

Occam's razor

 

[Phoenix]

None, the scab union allowed them to transfer to CLT and PHL to avoid furlough while pilots senior to them were furloughed.

How many east pilots are now based in PIT, DCA, LGA, and why are they flying seats that belong to West pilots?

No West pilot ever owned any seat in PIT, DCA, or LGA (two of which are not a base anymore, in case you are trying to keep up.)

Try just going to work and enjoy the view. All this searching for boogeyman, snipes, and scabs is going to put you in an early grave.

 

[fatherabraham]

It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

Pi,
So true, IMO they reside in a world where every possible future negotiation must be a win/win scenario or their not interested.
Can't blame em for trying, they got addicted with alpa policies. Have seen 1 westie ( beancounter ) who occasionally admits the failing of Nic ( in his own words ) to lower end of East list. Who knows, maybe there's more.
FA

 

[CallawayGolf]

A big difference in "fault" and co-equals. The Nic award was and is a problem. Saying over and over that it is not and to eat it hasn't and won't fix things.

So in your alternate reality world you would have expected the west pilots on or about May 2, 2007 to have come out and said, "wait just a minute, we cannot and will not accept the SLI as awarded by the panel. Even though this arbitration followed ALPA merger policy, meets with all of the requirements contained in the TA for integrating the two pilot groups, provides "super-seniority" status to 517 east pilots before the first west pilot is integrated into the combined list, and has the immediate effect of reducing the relative seniority status of nearly every active west pilot, WE CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LIST because the harm done to the furloughed or very junior east pilots at the time of the merger is just too great for us to stomach. Therefore, in a truly magnanimous act of good will and placing others needs above those of our own, we petition the east MEC, ALPA National, and US Airways Management to vacate the results of this award in favor of a seniority integration plan that provides even more benefits to our east counterparts at the direct expense of our own seniority status and career outlook over the next 10-15 years. Furthmore, the east pilots should expect the west pilots' full and unwavering support for retroactive pay parity from the date of the merger, September 27, 2005. We are fully cognizant that in order for Management to meet these non-negotiable expectations of the west pilots that our own pay scales in the JCBA may well be static or even reduced for many years into the future. Nevertheless, from henceforth and forevermore, never let it be said that the west pilots do not have the best interests of the east pilots at heart and are willing to suffer great personal harm in order to demonstrate this genuine degree of compassion and camaraderie we have for all who serve in the cockpits."

Is that what you are/were looking for? Do you have the same expectations of yourself and your fellow east pilots? Wouldn't want you to be hypocritical or anything in your quest cooperation and compromise in arrears, as it were.

 

[cleardirect]

A big difference in "fault" and co-equals. The Nic award was and is a problem. Saying over and over that it is not and to eat it hasn't and won't fix things.

Telling us that you have a problem and that the west needs to fix your problem. Saying over and over is not going to fix anything.

It is you have sees it as a problem. We do not see it as a problem.

The west sees the east as using your majority to cram down your will as a problem. Do you see that as a problem? My guess would be no. Are you willing to fix our problem?

 

[Move2CLT]

It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

Spot on.

+1

 

[Phoenix]

So in your alternate reality world you would have expected the west pilots on or about May 2, 2007 to have come out and said, "wait just a minute, we cannot and will not accept the SLI as awarded by the panel. Even though this arbitration followed ALPA merger policy, meets with all of the requirements contained in the TA for integrating the two pilot groups, provides "super-seniority" status to 517 east pilots before the first west pilot is integrated into the combined list, and has the immediate effect of reducing the relative seniority status of nearly every active west pilot, WE CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LIST because the harm done to the furloughed or very junior east pilots at the time of the merger is just too great for us to stomach. Therefore, in a truly magnanimous act of good will and placing others needs above those of our own, we petition the east MEC, ALPA National, and US Airways Management to vacate the results of this award in favor a a seniority integration plan that provides even more benefits to our east counterparts at the direct expense of our seniority status and career outlook over the next 10-15 years. Furthmore, the east pilots should expect the west pilots full and unwavering support for retroactive pay parity from the date of the merger, September 27, 2005. We are fully cognizant that in order for Management to meet these non-negotiable expectations of the west pilots that our own pay scales in the JCBA may well be static or even reduced for many years into the future. From henceforth and forevermore never let it be said that the west pilots do not have the best interests of the east pilots at heart and are willing to suffer great personal harm in order to demonstrate this genuine degree of compassion and camaraderie we have for all who serve in the cockpits."

Is that what you are/were looking for? Do you have the same expectations of yourself and your fellow east pilots? Wouldn't want you to be hypocritical or anything in your quest cooperation and compromise in arrears, as it were.

No. You didn't have to say all that. Simply being a little less militant against your union leader's request to discuss a resolution to the dispute would have been a start.

 

[Move2CLT]

Pi,
So true, IMO they reside in a world where every possible future negotiation must be a win/win scenario or their not interested.
Can't blame em for trying, they got addicted with alpa policies. Have seen 1 westie ( beancounter ) who occasionally admits the failing of Nic ( in his own words ) to lower end of East list. Who knows, maybe there's more.
FA

Don't you look for win/win scenarios?

Oh, wait. You guys like to make things worse for yourselves and blame others. What was I thinking

No west pilot admits the failings of Nic because there are no failings of Nic. Only the east sees an agreed to arbitrated award as a failing because you didn't get your DOH.

Typical eastie - always someone else to blame. Find the list I made for you and pick one

 

[Move2CLT]

I say acknowledge each sides POV and find an answer. It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

We did acknowledge each sides POV - during negotiations, mediation, and arbitration.

No dice and no reason to do it now.

So, technically, you're idea is wrong, stupid, so you need to just go ahead and eat the Nic.

 

[CallawayGolf]

No. You didn't have to say all that. Simply being a little less militant against your union leader's request to discuss a resolution to the dispute would have been a start.

Not really a big difference. I may have overemphasized the degree of self-sacrificing attitude PI was looking for to make this happen, but the results would have been the same. An award that was already imbalanced in it's approach to favor the east was then requested to be reopened so that the imbalance could be exploited even further giving the west pilots even less and the east pilots even more. That is unless you had an offer in place that would have taken the imbalance the other direction (less to the east and more to the west). Didn't think so.

 

[Phoenix]

Not really a big difference. I may have overemphasized the degree of self-sacrificing attitude PI was looking for to make this happen, but the results would have been the same. An award that was already imbalanced in it's approach to favor the east was then requested to be reopened so that the imbalance could be exploited even further giving the west pilots even less and the east pilots even more. That is unless you had an offer in place that would have taken the imbalance the other direction (less to the east and more to the west). Didn't think so.

Well then if it was your position that the union leaders were refusing to abide by the terms of their own policy then you should have taken measures to replace them.

 

[traderjake]

Simply being a little less militant against your union leader's request to discuss a resolution to the dispute would have been a start.

Did you just call Mike Cleary a "leader"?

He's the President of the union, by no stretch of the imagination is he a leader.

 

[Phoenix]

Did you just call Mike Cleary a "leader"?

If you jump into the middle of a conversation before reading the context you might ask unnecessary questions.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well then if it was your position that the union leaders were refusing to abide by the terms of their own policy then you should have taken measures to replace them.

I didn't say anything of the sort and that is not my position. Waiting for seven months to submit the list to Management was an unnecessary delay in that step of the process, but it didn't change when a JCBA/TA would be sent for ratification. Likewise, I have no problem with leaders looking for solutions they believe will ultimately have the broad-ranging support of those they represent, but if their actions run entirely counter to the will of the membership, then those hopes for a different solution must be abandoned. If ALPA would have been retained after the representational election, the NIC is the only seniority list that ALPA could or would be advance IMO. The east MEC could have held their breathes until they turned blue, but the NIC would still have been the list. Instead we have USAPA taking an costly, extended and very circuitous route to arrive at the same conclusion via the DJ trial in Silver's courtroom, or so I fully expect when all is said and done.