US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

And why has USAPA taken this route?

1- The NIC was flawed from the beginning, ask any MDA pilot.

2- It DOES NOT abide by ALPA merger policy...no windfall for either group.

Thus, USAPA was born.

breeze

The Franke disciples claim USAPA was formed to exclusively circumvent the Nic. They then claim it is a failed union in the same breath. In the view of the disciples, USAPA has hamstrung them incredibly. They too are injuncted and the Nic is stopped dead. The disciples are wrong. USAPA has thwarted them completely, and they are frustrated beyond anger. The Franke disciples know USAPA has killed the Nic. That is why they whine and complain constantly about it.

 

[Pi brat]

Occam's razor

"The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is
"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.""

How about this: "The Nicolau award has produced such a lousy situation, it must be screwed up". Sums it up pretty well to me. Is that what you were getting at?

 

[CallawayGolf]

And you accuse me of having an alternate reality? Is this as clear as you Delta mistakes rant that oscarjazz handled so well? That was a fact too, wasn't it? In your reality.

I didn't have a Delta rant. You asked for my opinion on what started and sustained the "My Delta" campaign and I gave you my answer/opinion. Apparently Oscar thinks that a person's opinion is subject to factual scrutiny and then failed to accomplish his objective of proving that I got a single thing wrong. Since he failed at that, he had to claim I said things I didn't say and then accuse me of getting something wrong that I didn't say or even imply. Yeah, Oscar handled that response well. I wonder if he is still confused about what constitutes an equity investment is versus debt, or if he is still confused about the differences between the first year out of bankruptcy versus the first year of the merger, or if he still thinks that a Goodwill write-off is a cashless transaction? Did you challenge him when he made those factual errors or were you just blindly cheering from the sidelines not knowing the differences either?

 

[Claxon]

I didn't have a Delta rant. You asked for my opinion on what started and sustained the "My Delta" campaign and I gave you my answer/opinion. Apparently Oscar thinks that a person's opinion is subject to factual scrutiny and then failed to accomplish his objective of proving that I got a single thing wrong. Since he failed at that, he had to claim I said things I didn't say and then accuse me of getting something wrong that I didn't say or even imply. Yeah, Oscar handled that response well. I wonder if he is still confused about what constitutes an equity investment is versus debt, or if he is still confused about the differences between the first year out of bankruptcy versus the first year of the merger, or if he still thinks that a Goodwill write-off is a cashless transaction? Did you challenge him when he made those factual errors or were you just blindly cheering from the sidelines not knowing the differences either?

The reality is nobody wants the Franke America West association. It continues to drag the industry down. Hopefully the AA group will have the power to keep it away as did the Deltoids.

 

[Pi brat]

I didn't have a Delta rant. You asked for my opinion on what started and sustained the "My Delta" campaign and I gave you my answer/opinion. Apparently Oscar thinks that a person's opinion is subject to factual scrutiny and then failed to accomplish his objective of proving that I got a single thing wrong. Since he failed at that, he had to claim I said things I didn't say and then accuse me of getting something wrong that I didn't say or even imply. Yeah, Oscar handled that response well. I wonder if he is still confused about what constitutes an equity investment is versus debt, or if he is still confused about the differences between the first year out of bankruptcy versus the first year of the merger, or if he still thinks that a Goodwill write-off is a cashless transaction? Did you challenge him when he made those factual errors or were you just blindly cheering from the sidelines not knowing the differences either?

There ya go. You da man.

 

[nic4us]

I didn't say anything of the sort and that is not my position. Waiting for seven months to submit the list to Management was an unnecessary delay in that step of the process, but it didn't change when a JCBA/TA would be sent for ratification. Likewise, I have no problem with leaders looking for solutions they believe will ultimately have the broad-ranging support of those they represent, but if their actions run entirely counter to the will of the membership, then those hopes for a different solution must be abandoned. If ALPA would have been retained after the representational election, the NIC is the only seniority list that ALPA could or would be advance IMO. The east MEC could have held their breathes until they turned blue, but the NIC would still have been the list. Instead we have USAPA taking an costly, extended and very circuitous route to arrive at the same conclusion via the DJ trial in Silver's courtroom, or so I fully expect when all is said and done.

1. BS on the ALPA stuff. That fat scumbag Prater violated ALPA's DFR to the West pilots in the mere construction of his Rice committee. Had Jahn Mac had the stones in the beginning and told Prater, how about f u, submit that list within a week or we are filing suit, the executive council would have submitted the list post haste. With the east pilots off crying and not negotiating for an entire year until they elected the scab union, negotiations would have been considered terminated.

2. You expect more from Silver than I do. All the DJ is going to do is remove a worm or two from the can Tashima opened up.

3. On a completely different note, What do you think of the AFA going with a PBS contract, and telling usapa in a defacto sense they are a bunch of losing idiots. They spent years talking with the company waiting for the pilots, then,, what 27 days???,, after the east FAs contract became amendable, they have a tentative agreement out.

 

[Claxon]

Not my union, not my leader, not a request.

You are drinking the usapa kool-aid again. Still not aware that nobody is interested in discussions or resolutions with reneging malcontents who cannot abide by their agreements.

You think Hummel may be your boy then? eastern division is fully aware of your Hummel end run, McKee is the choice of the eastern . nice try.

 

[nic4us]

And why has USAPA taken this route?

1- The NIC was flawed from the beginning, ask any MDA pilot.

2- It DOES NOT abide by ALPA merger policy...no windfall for either group.

Thus, USAPA was born.

breeze

Yes breeze, we all get it the furloughed pilots do not like that Nic put them below the active pilots.

usapa was not born....it is the stillbirth that resulted from the joining of east majority numbers with east scab ambition.

 

[cleardirect]

Whom, western, are the people that count?

It is a waste of everyone time responding to you because you are so clueless. But here it goes.

Nicolau is not "western" He is from the east coast.

ALPA is not western they are from the east coast. As a metter of fact ALPA HQ is in the east's backyard.

Those were the people that counted.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You know it all. Everything. You have shown it over and over. Religion, business, seniority. There is nothing I can tell you.

You can tell me anything that is a verifiable or logical fact and I will believe you. Now what in my previous post was not a verifiable fact? Did the NIC not give 517 east pilots the highest seniority in the award? Did west pilots, except for those at the very bottom of the list, not lose relative seniority status based on the order of the list on the date it was released? Will any JCBA that brings east and west to a pay parity situation not contain substantially more pay improvements for east pilots than for west pilots, no matter what the final pay rates might be? Does it not seem fundamentally illogical for a west pilot to have viewed the award as somehow favoring them versus what was afforded the active east pilots (higher relative seniority or super-seniority and a chance to gain substantially higher pay rates vs. anything that the west may be offered via Kirby or Kirby+ something better)? And yet, you want the west pilots back in 2007 to have viewed the award as somehow being a windfall to them rather than the other way around and then voluntarily seek to give more to the east than the neutral arbitrator did so that they could hopefully gain substantial improvements once the logjam of east pilots over the age of 50 retired in 10-15 years. Perhaps a small handful of very selfless individuals might have been persuaded to overturn the NIC in 2007, but you seem to be stating that a substantial majority of west pilots should have been selfless and magnanimous because the NIC was so radically different than the pure staple job the east was asking for. All kidding and posturing aside, do you really think that would have or could have happened so as to prevent USAPA from coming onto the property? Has any pilot integration ever been so congenial as to have one side voluntarily give up more than they had to to move the process forward?

 

[Pi brat]

3. On a completely different note, What do you think of the AFA going with a PBS contract, and telling usapa in a defacto sense they are a bunch of losing idiots. They spent years talking with the company waiting for the pilots, then,, what 27 days???,, after the east FAs contract became amendable, they have a tentative agreement out.

Wrong Nic. They have been trying to get a JOINT contract since we have, and they haven't had the issue of their SLI to deal with. What took so long? Plus, I can tell you of at least one F/A that is none too happy with it.

 

[Pi brat]

You can tell me anything that is a verifiable or logical fact and I will believe you. Now what in my previous post was not a verifiable fact? Did the NIC not give 517 east pilots the highest seniority in the award? Did west pilots, except for those at the very bottom of the list, not lose relative seniority status based on the order of the list on the date it was released? Will any JCBA that brings east and west to a pay parity situation not contain substantially more pay improvements for east pilots than for west pilots, no matter what the final pay rates might be? Does it not seem fundamentally illogical for a west pilot to have viewed the award as somehow favoring them versus what was afforded the active east pilots (higher relative seniority or super-seniority and a chance to gain substantially higher pay rates vs. anything that the west may be offered via Kirby or Kirby+ something better)? And yet, you want the west pilots back in 2007 to have viewed the award as somehow being a windfall to them rather than the other way around and then voluntarily seek to give more to the east than the neutral arbitrator did so that they could hopefully gain substantial improvements once the logjam of east pilots over the age of 50 retired in 10-15 years. Perhaps a small handful of very selfless individuals might have been persuaded to overturn the NIC in 2007, but you seem to be stating that a substantial majority of west pilots should have been selfless and magnanimous because the NIC was so radically different than the pure staple job the east was asking for. All kidding and posturing aside, do you really think that would have or could have happened so as to prevent USAPA from coming onto the property? Has any pilot integration ever been so congenial as to have one side voluntarily give up more than they had to to move the process forward?

I cannot tell you anything. I haven't found anyone that can.

One last try. Moving forward, the majority of west gains relative seniority while the majority of the east loses. It all depends on how you look at things and pick out what you want. You look at the slotting the day it happened and say that the future should be ignored. I say that the "career expectations" should have had Nic at least look at relative positions moving forward. Look at them. Look how improved some west are, and how some east are set back. It's clear to me. It happens. I have someone that was there for every minute that agrees with me, Mr. Brucia.

I believe you mentioned some problems that some group suffers in another post. Would you consider arrogance a problem?

 

[Claxon]

It is a waste of everyone time responding to you because you are so clueless. But here it goes.

Nicolau is not "western" He is from the east coast.

ALPA is not western they are from the east coast. As a metter of fact ALPA HQ is in the east's backyard.

Those were the people that counted.

You, are the western, and you talk in circles. Name the people who counted.

 

[nic4us]

The reality is nobody wants the Franke America West association. It continues to drag the industry down. Hopefully the AA group will have the power to keep it away as did the Deltoids.

What eltroconvulsive therapy ended early today?

The east's man Lakefield was besides himself selling the AWA buyout offer to the bankrupt company's board. But, you are right, other than that there was only the ATA pilots trying to get their board to go with the AWA offer over the SWA offer, and of course there was that whole "no way that Delta would allow the scum from the east be part of any transaction" quote from Mook.

 

[CallawayGolf]

1. BS on the ALPA stuff. That fat scumbag Prater violated ALPA's DFR to the West pilots in the mere construction of his Rice committee. Had Jahn Mac had the stones in the beginning and told Prater, how about f u, submit that list within a week or we are filing suit, the executive council would have submitted the list post haste. With the east pilots off crying and not negotiating for an entire year until they elected the scab union, negotiations would have been considered terminated.

2. You expect more from Silver than I do. All the DJ is going to do is remove a worm or two from the can Tashima opened up.

3. On a completely different note, What do you think of the AFA going with a PBS contract, and telling usapa in a defacto sense they are a bunch of losing idiots. They spent years talking with the company waiting for the pilots, then,, what 27 days???,, after the east FAs contract became amendable, they have a tentative agreement out.

1. Not sure what the BS flag is for. Could things have gone differently, yes. Do I think that a TA would have been sent for ratification before the end of 2007, no. So did the ALPA gutless delay really cost anything, probably not but that's just my opinion.

2. I don't know how Silver will rule but I know what the factual evidence presented should lead her to and I believe she telegraphed that to some degree when she heard what Siegel had to say and then transformed a normal-paced proceeding to one where she didn't need to hear another word of testimony to make her decision.

3. I wish the FAs would have conceded back in 2006-2008 that the east pilots were years away from a contract because of their irrational views on resolving seniority. At least they figured it out now and have moved to close all of the sections with a reasonable give-and-take agreement that is definitively worth considering and very well may be ratified. Even if it doesn't pass the FAs are miles ahead of USAPA.