US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

If you jump into the middle of a conversation before reading the context you might ask unnecessary questions.

Got it, Mike Cleary is your leader.

 

[mrbreeze]

I didn't say anything of the sort and that is not my position. Waiting for seven months to submit the list to Management was an unnecessary delay in that step of the process, but it didn't change when a JCBA/TA would be sent for ratification. Likewise, I have no problem with leaders looking for solutions they believe will ultimately have the broad-ranging support of those they represent, but if their actions run entirely counter to the will of the membership, then those hopes for a different solution must be abandoned. If ALPA would have been retained after the representational election, the NIC is the only seniority list that ALPA could or would be advance IMO. The east MEC could have held their breathes until they turned blue, but the NIC would still have been the list. Instead we have USAPA taking an costly, extended and very circuitous route to arrive at the same conclusion via the DJ trial in Silver's courtroom, or so I fully expect when all is said and done.

And why has USAPA taken this route?

1- The NIC was flawed from the beginning, ask any MDA pilot.

2- It DOES NOT abide by ALPA merger policy...no windfall for either group.

Thus, USAPA was born.

breeze

 

[fifidriver]

I agree. Happiness=reality/expectations. This why the west was generally happier with the Nic than the east. The real issue is whether the expectations were realistic. You guys say no, ours say yes. But, beating someone over the head over and over again rarely makes them see thing differently. Look at me, I haven't convinced you guys of anything. I say acknowledge each sides POV and find an answer. It feels like the west answer is, you're wrong, you're stupid, eat it.

I probably wouldn't use the word "stupid". If it were my kid, I would maybe suggest that his choice or choices, in retrospect, may have been poor. While I realize that this ground has been covered "ad nauseum" to say the least, however, I would ask you this; Why did the NIC grant the first 517 slots to the East? Allow me to provide the obvious answer. Career expectations. (I realize that it has been vigorously debated that this assessment is generous.) That argument not withstanding; Why did the NIC not incorporate LOS at the bottom of the list? ______ __________. Hmmm.... I concur, and my answer also is that "you're wrong"! I believe that the NIC is cast in concrete and the only question is how long will it take for it to set.

 

[CallawayGolf]

And why has USAPA taken this route?

1- The NIC was flawed from the beginning, ask any MDA pilot.

2- It DOES NOT abide by ALPA merger policy...no windfall for either group.

Thus, USAPA was born.

breeze

The NIC isn't flawed and never was. The East MEC provided the certified list to the arbitration panel. Furthermore, Nicolau was fully aware of the issues concerning MDA and exercised the arbitration power you (east pilots) and west pilots granted him to resolve the dispute. However, if you wanted to challenge the award, there was a finite amount of time in which that challenge could be made before the statute of limitations ran out. Since nothing came of that fruitless endeavor, the list remains with no possibility left to challenge its merits.

Now of course if you mean that the list was flawed because it was written by a human being, and since all human beings are imperfect, the things they produce are also imperfect, then I can agree with you there. By implication that also means that any list produced by any person or persons is also "flawed" and thus there never was, is or will be a "perfect" or flawless document of this kind. Therefore, the term flawed is rather meaningless because there is no ontological basis for human beings to produce anything other than a flawed document and the law and the ALPA merger policy cannot hold to a standard of having a perfect SLI list since there never could be such a thing produced by mortal, fallible men.

The NIC does abide by ALPA merger policy and there has never been a challenge to the award that would or could prove otherwise. Still, I'll play along just like I did with PI a few months back and ask you to provide a clear, unbiased definition of a windfall per APLA policy. Then when you cite the windfall provisions, I will be glad to prove beyond any and all reasonable doubt that the NIC did not contain any such windfalls to the west and also show how all of the advantages actually went to the east group, not to the west.

 

[cleardirect]

And why has USAPA taken this route?

1- The NIC was flawed from the beginning, ask any MDA pilot.

2- It DOES NOT abide by ALPA merger policy...no windfall for either group.

Thus, USAPA was born.

breeze

1. In your opinion.
2. In your opinion.

In the opinion of the people that count. Nicolau and the executive board of the organization that interprets the policy it did not violate the policy.

Where is that law suit the MDA guy filed 7 years ago?

 

[Phoenix]

Got it, Mike Cleary is your leader.

Still can't read context or are you just that lazy? The leader was Prater. No need to apologize.

 

[Pi brat]

It is you have sees it as a problem. We do not see it as a problem.

The west sees the east as using your majority to cram down your will as a problem. Do you see that as a problem? My guess would be no. Are you willing to fix our problem?

Oh, you're right clear, we don't have a problem. We have been enjoying the fruits of our mutual admiration and cooperation ever since the Nic came out. I'm not sure what threw me off. I guess it is the burden of spending all my extra money and time.

Your guess would be wrong. I guess you haven't been paying attention. Shocker.

 

[Pi brat]

So in your alternate reality world you would have expected the west pilots on or about May 2, 2007 to have come out and said, "wait just a minute, we cannot and will not accept the SLI as awarded by the panel. Even though this arbitration followed ALPA merger policy, meets with all of the requirements contained in the TA for integrating the two pilot groups, provides "super-seniority" status to 517 east pilots before the first west pilot is integrated into the combined list, and has the immediate effect of reducing the relative seniority status of nearly every active west pilot, WE CANNOT ACCEPT THIS LIST because the harm done to the furloughed or very junior east pilots at the time of the merger is just too great for us to stomach. Therefore, in a truly magnanimous act of good will and placing others needs above those of our own, we petition the east MEC, ALPA National, and US Airways Management to vacate the results of this award in favor of a seniority integration plan that provides even more benefits to our east counterparts at the direct expense of our own seniority status and career outlook over the next 10-15 years. Furthmore, the east pilots should expect the west pilots' full and unwavering support for retroactive pay parity from the date of the merger, September 27, 2005. We are fully cognizant that in order for Management to meet these non-negotiable expectations of the west pilots that our own pay scales in the JCBA may well be static or even reduced for many years into the future. Nevertheless, from henceforth and forevermore, never let it be said that the west pilots do not have the best interests of the east pilots at heart and are willing to suffer great personal harm in order to demonstrate this genuine degree of compassion and camaraderie we have for all who serve in the cockpits."

Is that what you are/were looking for? Do you have the same expectations of yourself and your fellow east pilots? Wouldn't want you to be hypocritical or anything in your quest cooperation and compromise in arrears, as it were.

Yeah that's it. You nailed. When you start with "in your alternate reality", well you know what you can do.

 

[Phoenix]

The NIC isn't flawed and never was. .

 

[Pi brat]

I probably wouldn't use the word "stupid". If it were my kid, I would maybe suggest that his choice or choices, in retrospect, may have been poor. While I realize that this ground has been covered "ad nauseum" to say the least, however, I would ask you this; Why did the NIC grant the first 517 slots to the East? Allow me to provide the obvious answer. Career expectations. (I realize that it has been vigorously debated that this assessment is generous.) That argument not withstanding; Why did the NIC not incorporate LOS at the bottom of the list? ______ __________. Hmmm.... I concur, and my answer also is that "you're wrong"! I believe that the NIC is cast in concrete and the only question is how long will it take for it to set.

The obvious answer? I don't agree, or at least that he did it properly. Number 500 on the list wasn't an A330 captain. His placement guarantees that he can reach that within the time he expected. I wasn't an A330 captain, but my placement guarantees I can't reach it as expected, but allows someone that didn't have a reasonable expectation of hitting it at all, to hit it way before me. Why the difference?

Cast in cement, maybe. But at what cost?

 

[Claxon]

In the opinion of the people that count. Nicolau and the executive board of the organization that interprets the policy it did not violate the policy.

Whom, western, are the people that count?

 

[Pi brat]

The NIC isn't flawed and never was.

And you accuse me of having an alternate reality? Is this as clear as you Delta mistakes rant that oscarjazz handled so well? That was a fact too, wasn't it? In your reality.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yeah that's it. You nailed. When you start with "in your alternate reality", well you know what you can do.

Okay so how about in your current reality world?

 

[Pi brat]

Okay so how about in your current reality world?

You know it all. Everything. You have shown it over and over. Religion, business, seniority. There is nothing I can tell you.

 

[nic4us]

No. You didn't have to say all that. Simply being a little less militant against your union leader's request to discuss a resolution to the dispute would have been a start.

Not my union, not my leader, not a request.

You are drinking the usapa kool-aid again. Still not aware that nobody is interested in discussions or resolutions with reneging malcontents who cannot abide by their agreements.