US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

MAINLINE PILOTS WORKING FOR USAIRWAYS, LEGALLY!

PERIOD!

breeze

wrong. wrong. wrong. One had to be FURLOUGHED to work there originally. Keep it up...maybe you'll eventually find someone dumb enough to believe your B.S..

 

[Move2CLT]

wrong. wrong. wrong. One had to be FURLOUGHED to work there originally. Keep it up...maybe you'll eventually find someone dumb enough to believe your B.S..

Amazing how all this didn't come up during negotiations.

The easties and breeze decided it was an issue AFTER Nic came out.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The easties and breeze decided it was an issue AFTER Nic came out.

Prior to that, they stuck MDA pilots with the Eagle contract, the Express pay scales, voted to let the company sell the airplanes out from under the MDA guys/gals, and filed the CoC grievance over the sale of the E170's (how do you have a change of control of something that doesn't exist?).

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

Never flew MDA, no dog in that fight.

However it seems pretty simple. USAir tried to convince everyone that MDA pilots were not Mainline. However the simple fact that there has never been a MDA certificate seems to make it a closed case.

Mid Atlantic never existed in the eyes of the FAA. Mid atlantic aircraft flew on USAirways certificate, just like Metrojet did prior to that. Play musical chairs all you want with the screwball working agreements and payscales but the simple fact remains that MDA 170's flew on USairways certificate, were controlled by USAirways dispatchers, and were maintained by USAirways maint. department.

Saying MDA was not USAirways is the same as saying the west operation is not USAirways. Different sen list, different payscale, no mixing of crews, but one certificate.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Never flew MDA, no dog in that fight.

However it seems pretty simple. USAir tried to convince everyone that MDA pilots were not Mainline. However the simple fact that there has never been a MDA certificate seems to make it a closed case.

Mid Atlantic never existed in the eyes of the FAA. Mid atlantic aircraft flew on USAirways certificate, just like Metrojet did prior to that. Play musical chairs all you want with the screwball working agreements and payscales but the simple fact remains that MDA 170's flew on USairways certificate, were controlled by USAirways dispatchers, and were maintained by USAirways maint. department.

Saying MDA was not USAirways is the same as saying the west operation is not USAirways. Different sen list, different payscale, no mixing of crews, but one certificate.

And after review considered to be on furlough from active mainline status by the only person whith an opinion that matters in the SLI integration arbitration: George Nicolau. Since the time to challenge the award has long since past this pointless sidebar conversation will not change the seniority list by a single name. Wake may have given $eham wide latitude to bring up distracting and off topic issues like this, but Silver doesn't seem to allow such liberties in her courtroom.

 

[BoeingBoy]

However it seems pretty simple. USAir tried to convince everyone that MDA pilots were not Mainline. However the simple fact that there has never been a MDA certificate seems to make it a closed case.

If you only look at it from a FAA certification perspective you're right - the FAA viewed MDA as mainline in some respects. But that ignores the corporate issue. Was there a separate corporate entity that did business as MDA or not? Was there a NMB ruling that MDA and mainline were a single carrier or not?

What is ironic to me, and has been since the MDA issue was raised, is that ALPA considered and treated the MDA pilots as recalled to mainline (except the CEL pilots weren't recalled but rather transferred) while it was the MDA folk's fellow pilots that treated them as second class citizens (furloughed) from the time MDA was negotiated to the time it ceased to exist. Now those same mainline pilots that ratified the agreement calling for MDA to be a "soft landing" for furloughed pilots, that approved the separate contract/pay scale, that voted to sell the E170's - are all raising the battle cry that MDA was mainline all along, strictly to enhance their position on a combined list. And they'd throw the MDA folks under the bus again if they thought it would help their case.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

And after review considered to be on furlough from active mainline status by the only person whith an opinion that matters in the SLI integration arbitration: George Nicolau. Since the time to challenge the award has long since past this pointless sidebar conversation will not change the seniority list by a single name. Wake may have given $eham wide latitude to bring up distracting and off topic issues like this, but Silver doesn't seem to allow such liberties in her courtroom.

And that is why we have the mess we have now. So many people screwed and omitted in this merger process that have full voting rights that we will never be able to sort it out until the very last lawsuit and court battle has been fought.

 

[Metroyet]

Never flew MDA, no dog in that fight.

However it seems pretty simple. USAir tried to convince everyone that MDA pilots were not Mainline. However the simple fact that there has never been a MDA certificate seems to make it a closed case.

Mid Atlantic never existed in the eyes of the FAA. Mid atlantic aircraft flew on USAirways certificate, just like Metrojet did prior to that. Play musical chairs all you want with the screwball working agreements and payscales but the simple fact remains that MDA 170's flew on USairways certificate, were controlled by USAirways dispatchers, and were maintained by USAirways maint. department.

Saying MDA was not USAirways is the same as saying the west operation is not USAirways. Different sen list, different payscale, no mixing of crews, but one certificate.

It was a separate entity working under a completely different contract. The FAA certificate is meaningless. Keep trying!! Still had to be furloughed to work there...good luck getting past that little hurdle!!

 

[Keroseneuser]

while it was the MDA folk's fellow pilots that treated them as second class citizens (furloughed) from the time MDA was negotiated to the time it ceased to exist. Now those same mainline pilots that ratified the agreement calling for MDA to be a "soft landing" for furloughed pilots, that approved the separate contract/pay scale, that voted to sell the E170's - are all raising the battle cry that MDA was mainline all along.

Jim

That is another reason in the long list of why ALPA is not on this property anymore. Does not matter that it took place on the local level (usairways ALPA) the ones hosed by it didn't forget their treatment in 2008 when the USAPA vote came around.

ALPA screwed the pooch so often their exit was almost guaranteed when the chance came. Spoke with a ex J4J guy shortly after the vote. What sealed the deal for him was a letter from ALPA national demanding dues money since every pilot had been recalled....problem was the guy was being held for 9 months at a J4J carrier, a process that ALPA approved and endorsed. Yet he still got a nasty letter demanding dues money. He said he just wrote on the form they sent "If ALPA has no idea where I am considering it is an ALPA developed and approved program, you can Kiss my A%^ on your dues money."

 

[Keroseneuser]

It was a separate entity working under a completely different contract. The FAA certificate is meaningless. Keep trying!! Still had to be furloughed to work there...good luck getting past that little hurdle!!

Ignore it if you want. Things like this is why USAPA came into power in the first place. As long as items that affect large groups of voting pilots exist we will never be working under one list.

That one item effectivly negates a good portion of the west voting power. Thats about 300 votes right there. West only has about 1450 active pilots I think now that have voting ability once you take out the guys on medical.

 

[nic4us]

DOH was not rejected by the company, just put on hold, just like the NIC while the courts sort this out. The company is loving this because they are screwing the East and the West everyday, lining their pockets. That is why S22 has not been closed out.

Get your hearing checked.....no one has stated that the NIC is it. Actually there are about 3200 pilots that say the NIC is not it.

breeze

Actually Parker stated that the company has "accepted" the Nic as is their obligation under the TA.

The usapa DOH proposal was absolutely rejected by the company during negotiations.

What the 3200 pilots say would be meaningless if a merger were to be announced today. No player in a merger will touch anything but the Nic, because everybody knows the West pilots would be sitting on a "slam dunk" lawsuit that would kill the new company and the surviving union.

 

[Metroyet]

That is another reason in the long list of why ALPA is not on this property anymore. Does not matter that it took place on the local level (usairways ALPA) the ones hosed by it didn't forget their treatment in 2008 when the USAPA vote came around.

ALPA screwed the pooch so often their exit was almost guaranteed when the chance came. Spoke with a ex J4J guy shortly after the vote. What sealed the deal for him was a letter from ALPA national demanding dues money since every pilot had been recalled....problem was the guy was being held for 9 months at a J4J carrier, a process that ALPA approved and endorsed. Yet he still got a nasty letter demanding dues money. He said he just wrote on the form they sent "If ALPA has no idea where I am considering it is an ALPA developed and approved program, you can Kiss my A%^ on your dues money."

GMAFB. ALPA is sqeaky clean, platinum blonde beauty queen of unionism compared to this abortion you created called USAPA. You think it's insulting to the J4J guy to get a letter from ALPA demanding money? He had a job thanks to ALPA. Now, compare that with USAPA extorting money from West pilots to pay the alleged criminal Lee Seham to pervert labor law and steal their contractual rights and career under the very real threat of termination. ALPA was far to kind to you guys and that Flaccid wimp Prater should locked up for kissing your collective asses when he should have been kicking them.

You guys refuse to take any responsibility for anything. You continually fail to acknowledge the fact that your ALPA was YOUR pilots just like USAPA....which explains a lot about your failed scab union's total lack of success on any level. This trash heap you're laying in is the bed you've made for yourself....although I'm sure you're busy putting the blame elsewhere. Enjoy!

 

[Pi brat]

Are you claiming that you didn't say what you said I quoted you saying?

Jim

Your GAME is getting old Jim. Is that a picture of the sign your poor wife hangs around your neck?

 

[Keroseneuser]

GMAFB. ALPA is sqeaky clean, platinum blonde beauty queen of unionism compared to this abortion you created called USAPA. You think it's insulting to the J4J guy to get a letter from ALPA demanding money? He had a job thanks to ALPA. Now, compare that with USAPA extorting money from West pilots to pay the alleged criminal Lee Seham to pervert labor law and steal their contractual rights and career under the very real threat of termination. ALPA was far to kind to you guys and that Flaccid wimp Prater should locked up for kissing your collective asses when he should have been kicking them.

You guys refuse to take any responsibility for anything. You continually fail to acknowledge the fact that your ALPA was YOUR pilots just like USAPA....which explains a lot about your failed scab union's total lack of success on any level. This trash heap you're laying in is the bed you've made for yourself....although I'm sure you're busy putting the blame elsewhere. Enjoy!

Typical angry west response. ALPA didn't get voted off this property just because of NIC. As long as AOL is going under the premise that it did they will never make much headway. Huge numbers of east guys were hosed one way or another by ALPA dating back to before this merger was even an idea. NIC was the final catalist. Some other factors I have heard that pushed the junior guys especially away from ALPA are: Increase to 95 hours with 1800 guys on the street, removing furloughed guys from webboards, MDA issue, Metrojet B scale, 190 C scale, etc etc.

All I am saying is that as long as everybody wants to stick their head in the sand and pretend these factors don't apply to how people will vote, we cannot really do anything to move forward.

As far as the trash heap comment, I don't think you have many east guys that see it that way. Again you are taking your west views and trying to apply them to what an east pilot feels. I get why the west pilot feels the way he does. I can see the point and I agree that DOH is not a solution either. Problem is most west guys are too angry and frothing at the mouth to see WHY the east group did what it did and votes the way it votes.

 

[Pi brat]

The point IS you received the "career expectation" that was required.

The point IS you said:

If YOU bring up "career expectation" as an issue but chose to subvert the process that included "career expectation" why would anyone side with you?

Another PUI?

"I" didn't subvert anything, I am merely stating my OPINION of Nicolau's award. Here's the problem with some people and based on your post I'd have to say you are one of them. Thinking that Nic got it wrong doesn't equal thinking DOH gets it right and is the only answer.