US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

It was a separate entity working under a completely different contract. The FAA certificate is meaningless. Keep trying!! Still had to be furloughed to work there...good luck getting past that little hurdle!!

So if we merge with another carrier tomorrow, then I guess not only should the furloughed west pilots be stapled to the bottom, being that they bring no job to the merger, but also the west pilots who accepted jobs out east because they too had to be furloughed to work here.

P.S. I don't really believe this is how it should work, I'm just following yours and 737's logic.

 

[Pi brat]

wrong. wrong. wrong. One had to be FURLOUGHED to work there originally. Keep it up...maybe you'll eventually find someone dumb enough to believe your B.S..

From what I remember that is part of the problem. You are correct they did have to be furloughed to originally work there and the INTENT was for it to be a separate subsidiary of US Group. GE wanted the airplanes over here in the corner so they could get their hands on them if the reorganization didn't work. Problem was the the certificate got tangled up and the company and union were caught up in bigger problems, so they just let all of that go by the wayside. When they did that, they didn't change anything else that went along with it being a separate subsidiary, like bidding and filling of vacancies etc. It was intended to be like PDT, ended up more like Metrojet and the pilots feel their rights were ignored and trampled on. It's been a while since I've talked to a guy that is a party to the suit, but as I remember their DFR suit is mostly about money from ALPA, not changing the Nic award. I guess Nic still has jurisdiction of his award, and if the suit if successful he could amend it. Not sure, someone said there was a time limit, but I thought NW/Rep had issues going on for decades. Anyway, I doubt there will be little, if any change to the Nic over this. Good luck to the MDA guys though.

Jim is sort of right about mainline guys not caring. I don't believe it was intentional, we didn't know what was going on. MDA was setting on a shelf over there and if you didn't know one of the guys you didn't have a clue what was happening. I remember when their suit came out thinking "What the...".

I have limited knowledge of the whole MDA thing, but what I got I got from Bill Pollack sitting beside him at an ACPC meeting and actual pilots that were involved. Where did you get your information?

 

[nic4us]

Sparrowhawk,

The reason integration could not happen the way you suggest is that it would require a complete reordering of every pilot on the list. That is out of bounds of the merger policy, and what would generally be considered fair, and the company would not want to incur the cost of retraining virtually every pilot to the position commensurate of their realigned seniority.

I know you do not wish to take sides, and I am not trying to persued your opinion, I am making the following statement for the board, lurkers and such.

Make no mistake about it, usapa's intention is not to find a fair integration method. usapa was formed with the intention of taking the West pilot's seniority to advance the east pilots at West pilots expense. usapa claimed ALPA merger policy was unfair, even claiming things like a national seniority list would be more appropriate. But do they want to start a national seniority list? Hell no, that would move West pilots above east pilots even more than the Nic did! Do they want to integrate by experience, hell no, that would also move West pilots above east pilots. Do they want to integrate by DOB, hell no, same thing.

usapa wants to advance east seniority, the only way to do that it take it from the West, and the fact that AWA was a younger company gives them the ideal cover of DOH. There is indeed no way an AWA pilot (even one with vastly more experience and seniority than their furloughed ) can compete on the playing field of their choosing.

The fact that seniority has already been determined at LCC leaves usapa with only one course of action if they still wish to advance the east at the West's expense. They can force seperate ops until the West files the hybrid DFR against the company and usapa for reneging on the contractual terms of the TA requiring an integration, and for usapa's failure to meet its most fundamental requirement as a CBA, that being to negotiate for the class it represents.

 

[cleardirect]

You can't bid CLT. Are you mainline? Define mainline for professor.

Why were 517 east pilot placed at the top of the combined list?

Because the arbitrator decided that WB flying pays more and is desirable.

Following that logic 170's pay far less and is not desirable flying. Therefore you can argue all day they were not furlughed. It does not matter 170's pilot were placed below 320/737 pilots.

There were 1700 furloughs, only 300 MDA pilots. At some point on that list a furloughed pilot did not go to MDA. Anyone below that furlough pilot was FURLOUGHED. Otherwise you have out of seniority furloughs and someone should have filed a grievance. No one did so end of story. any claims died years ago.

 

[cleardirect]

No, the IBT's. Who are we talking about? What's your point? I don't have ALPA's 2005 merger policy in front of me, it changed you know? I believe career expectation was part of the equation. Was it not?

In Jan 2005 what was your career expectation?

 

[cleardirect]

ALPA knew they were Mainline and even patted themselves on the back by welcoming furloughed pilots back when they started MDA. The fact that USAir pilots were not allowed to bid across planes is evidence of the abuses that ALPA allowed to be foisted upon all its dues paying members at AAA. Any idiot knows that the types of privileges that were granted or denied to so-called MDA pilots is never a legitimate proof about what they were legally entitled to.

During the time when ALPA treated you so horribly you guys did what? NOTHING!!!!!!!!!

Only until your merger committee screwed up and you did not get what you wanted did you form a new union. Blamed ALPA and walked away.

Tell us after 4 years of running your new union how is that working out?

 

[cleardirect]

Touché.

The PHX junior pilots can accept an E190 at PHL or remain on furlough if they wish but no other PHX pilots are allowed to bid for those positions. In the West world this obviously means that the PHX pilots that accept the E190 are really furloughed from mainline.

When east pilots were furloughed from the east and recalled to the west. Were they furloughed from mainline?

 

[Keroseneuser]

There were 1700 furloughs, only 300 MDA pilots. At some point on that list a furloughed pilot did not go to MDA. Anyone below that furlough pilot was FURLOUGHED. Otherwise you have out of seniority furloughs and someone should have filed a grievance.

Which could cause even more problems since the guys offered the position were not told it was flying on mainline certificate, even the ones that asked from what I have been told. MDA pilots go to the bottom of the list. Meaning that the junior MDA pilot I think came from the last class hired prior to 9/11. So if it were ever to come officially in a court that MDA was mainline, then in effect you had about 1400 out of seniority furloughs. I think that is why all the sudden the company reduced a bunch of MDA pilots longevity payrates back by two years in 2009. If they were paying them longevity for the MDA time then by default they were confirming that MDA was mainline and then that would open up a whole can of worms for the guys that did not fly MDA and were told it was Not mainline.

 

[nic4us]

Which could cause even more problems since the guys offered the position were not told it was flying on mainline certificate, even the ones that asked from what I have been told. MDA pilots go to the bottom of the list. Meaning that the junior MDA pilot I think came from the last class hired prior to 9/11. So if it were ever to come officially in a court that MDA was mainline, then in effect you had about 1400 out of seniority furloughs. I think that is why all the sudden the company reduced a bunch of MDA pilots longevity payrates back by two years in 2009. If they were paying them longevity for the MDA time then by default they were confirming that MDA was mainline and then that would open up a whole can of worms for the guys that did not fly MDA and were told it was Not mainline.

Speaking of this, were these pilots required to repay the overpayment the company had given them as were the West pilots in the distance learning fiasco?

The way I remeber it, the answere was no.

So, regardless of the MDA situation, the company has once again shown its hand and allowed disparate treatment of West vs. east pilots to occur, and is making the West's case that they are in collusion with usapa, and guilty of a hybrid DFR.


On the topic of the status of MDA pilots, it really does not matter whether they were furloughed or not when it comes to the Nic. The only way it would really matter would be if their names did not even appear on the Nic. However, since their names are there and the placement of there names given consideration in the award, the arguement of whether or not they were furloughed is inconsequential.

 

[cleardirect]

Which could cause even more problems since the guys offered the position were not told it was flying on mainline certificate, even the ones that asked from what I have been told. MDA pilots go to the bottom of the list. Meaning that the junior MDA pilot I think came from the last class hired prior to 9/11. So if it were ever to come officially in a court that MDA was mainline, then in effect you had about 1400 out of seniority furloughs. I think that is why all the sudden the company reduced a bunch of MDA pilots longevity payrates back by two years in 2009. If they were paying them longevity for the MDA time then by default they were confirming that MDA was mainline and then that would open up a whole can of worms for the guys that did not fly MDA and were told it was Not mainline.

Here is one of the problems. You guys make decisions on what you are told. Did any of you read the contract? Read what the facts of the situation were instead of going on what you were told?

Was it the companies intention to have MDA mainline or a separate entity? Separate!

But what does it matter? the list is the list. The time to challenge it has long past.

Does LOA 93 have 170 pay rates? Do any of your contracts have 170 rates? NO. As I said even if you want to consider the MDA guy mainline they would still go below 320/737 pilots.

 

[nic4us]

When east pilots were furloughed from the east and recalled to the west. Were they furloughed from mainline?

I flew with two of these guys. One was pretty cool, the other was a completely delusional idiot.

I always think of him when Claxon posts. So much so it would not surprise me one bit to find out he is Claxon.

Either way, the answere to your question is,,,, who cares, they are still junior to evey West pilot!!

 

[Metroyet]

Typical angry west response. ALPA didn't get voted off this property just because of NIC. As long as AOL is going under the premise that it did they will never make much headway. Huge numbers of east guys were hosed one way or another by ALPA dating back to before this merger was even an idea. NIC was the final catalist. Some other factors I have heard that pushed the junior guys especially away from ALPA are: Increase to 95 hours with 1800 guys on the street, removing furloughed guys from webboards, MDA issue, Metrojet B scale, 190 C scale, etc etc.

All I am saying is that as long as everybody wants to stick their head in the sand and pretend these factors don't apply to how people will vote, we cannot really do anything to move forward.

Why do you guys think anybody gives a damn how you're going to cast your vote and for what reasons? Who cares? That laundry list of "ALPA" sins were all produced BY YOUR VERY OWN PILOTS not ALPA national. You guys did all of that to yourselves ALL ON YOUR OWN. Do you really think history is going to be any kinder to the East pilots with regards to USAPA? ALPA on it's most pathetic, dysfunctional day was ticking like a finely tuned Rolex compared to USAPA on it's best day. I think if you took a few seconds of quiet reflection you'd agree with that.

Vote however you want...for whatever reasons you care to dream up. Just know that your perceived right to get your way in no way trumps the legal rights of the West pilots. They have every right to a share of whatever benefits there are...if any...big IF actually, to this merger. There will never ever be any forward movement until you guys wrap your mind around the fact that the West pilots are owed what was agreed to. All of you had an absolute right to due process and it was completed. You can choose to refuse to Acknowledge that all you want. Nothing will change. You can threaten to vote no all you want but it's a little absurd in that there is no way USAPA is capable of delivering you something to even vote on. In the end I think we agree on one thing: USAPA and it's pilots are not going to move forward an inch. Not for years to come and at a staggering cost. Billions of more dollars down the drain so that say in 5 or so years from now you can find your name on the list Nicolau produced for you ten years earlier.

You blame ALPA for all your woes now...will you still be blaming them 5 more years from now after you chose to waste a full THIRD of a career on a pointless fools errand? My guess is yes as you guys are completely incapable of responsibility and accountability.

 

[fatherabraham]

player in a merger will touch anything but the Nic, because everybody knows the West pilots would be sitting on a "slam dunk" lawsuit that would kill the new company and the surviving union.

Nonic,

It will be hilarious watching the likes of you convincing any potential merger group that Dave Odell (sp) should be inserted per the Nic.

FA

 

[Pi brat]

Why were 517 east pilot placed at the top of the combined list?

Because the arbitrator decided that WB flying pays more and is desirable.

Following that logic 170's pay far less and is not desirable flying. Therefore you can argue all day they were not furlughed. It does not matter 170's pilot were placed below 320/737 pilots.

There were 1700 furloughs, only 300 MDA pilots. At some point on that list a furloughed pilot did not go to MDA. Anyone below that furlough pilot was FURLOUGHED. Otherwise you have out of seniority furloughs and someone should have filed a grievance. No one did so end of story. any claims died years ago.

Well, we can go back to why Nic did the WB like he did if we had no career expectations, I didn't see any of you guys address that point last night. I guess you guys could argue that since he put all F/O positions on top too, they are favorable.

If you look at the E170 vs the rest of the fleet in just a static top of scale view, no it's not too good. But if you look at it from where everyone was at PID as you suggest, you don't think Dave Odell wouldn't have bid left seat on it vs. right seat on the 737? Wasn't Colello's pay, schedules, vacation much more desirable than Odell's? Haven't you guys advocated looking at all those things as the basis for the slot?

With the other things Nic did he very well may have still put all the 170 positions below Odell. Heck, he put all the 330 and 76I worth of slots on top, even though the bottom 76I position is not favorable to the top A320 capt. Bizzare, IMHO.

 

[Move2CLT]

Never flew MDA, no dog in that fight.

However it seems pretty simple. USAir tried to convince everyone that MDA pilots were not Mainline. However the simple fact that there has never been a MDA certificate seems to make it a closed case.

Mid Atlantic never existed in the eyes of the FAA. Mid atlantic aircraft flew on USAirways certificate, just like Metrojet did prior to that. Play musical chairs all you want with the screwball working agreements and payscales but the simple fact remains that MDA 170's flew on USairways certificate, were controlled by USAirways dispatchers, and were maintained by USAirways maint. department.

Saying MDA was not USAirways is the same as saying the west operation is not USAirways. Different sen list, different payscale, no mixing of crews, but one certificate.

Whose contract did they work under?