US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

RR & Pi,

Hope ya stick around RR if my votes happen to win. I do enjoy reading your insight. I do have a poor track (win) record here sans the initial USAPA election.
Not naive enuf to believe my Info gathering was 100% accurate or truthful. All I could do was assimilate all the info and look at past history of self appointed / very outspoken individuals.
Hummels words alone I may have grudgenly accepted, but NOT tied into this Rowe/Manear/Ciabatonni group. They have w/o a doubt negatively impressed me for many years.
My vote:
McKee
Dopp
Wright
Borman


FA

 

[Metroyet]

I make a promise to you all..if McKee makes it past the primary tomorrow, you will never hear from me again on this airline forum, or any other.
RR

So if you don't get your way you're going to pack up and stop participating? Why does that sound familiar?

 

[Pi brat]

Yes in exchange for giving up the boogey man of lost attrition that Cleary gave you, you will get an industry leading contract. What about that deal do you have a problem with?

The fact that if we do not have unity it is an impossibility and with their current stand unity is impossible. Maybe if they get elected they will see that. Whichever way it turns out I wish us luck.

 

[Pi brat]

RR & Pi,

Hope ya stick around RR if my votes happen to win. I do enjoy reading your insight. I do have a poor track (win) record here sans the initial USAPA election.
Not naive enuf to believe my Info gathering was 100% accurate or truthful. All I could do was assimilate all the info and look at past history of self appointed / very outspoken individuals.
Hummels words alone I may have grudgenly accepted, but NOT tied into this Rowe/Manear/Ciabatonni group. They have w/o a doubt negatively impressed me for many years.
My vote:
McKee
Dopp
Wright
Borman


FA

I understand what you are saying, I'm not too happy with some that support Gary, but he really can't do anything about who supports him. On the other hand we have McKee's ACTIONS that directly led to the injunction, his support of the C18, his part in the Cleary/Mowrey regime.

The other day I called about a piece of property. All I wanted was the price, but the owner took off on a diatribe about Obama and how he did this and that and cost him, blah, blah, blah, and then went into calling him the anti-christ, new world order etc. I listened to that for a half an hour because I couldn't get a word in edgewise and I just wanted the price of the damn land! I came to the conclusion that he was a nut. But just because he was a Republican nut doesn't mean I will vote for Obama.

 

[Pi brat]

True to form, the usual attitude of not liking the answer so dismiss whoever gives the answer.

You have a longevity based pay scale now - annual increases up to 12 years of longevity on the pay scale for your equip/seat. Your not mentioning that doesn't mean anything. I mentioned Hummel's proposed single scale longevity pay for more years as an example of MITIGATION - giving the Nic in section 22 then taking back one of the perceived west benefits of the Nic somewhere else. Such a proposal would put mostly east pilots at the upper end of the pay scale and most west pilots at the lower end - MITIGATING the Nic. It does through the pay scale what DOH would do with seniority (which gives the capability to earn more) - lots of east pilots toward the top end and lots of west pilots toward the bottom. Thus it mitigates the Nic.

The idea of FO pay scales extending out to 20 years under certain circumstances would apply to relatively few pilots. FO's only for starters, so that omits over half the pilot group. Those unable to hold a captain position cuts the number by a lot more. I mentioned the E190 - in the last bid awarded (bid 12-02 will be awarded in a few days) the junior 190 captain was #2953. So every east FO senior to him could hold a captain position but chose not to - the 20 FO pay scales don't apply to them. Varini, the bottom east pilot (not including third listers) was #3254 - but he hasn't got 12 years of longevity yet so wouldn't qualify for 20 year FO pay scales. The most junior east pilot (not including third listers) who would benefit (starting in a few days) is #3190. So the east FO's between #3190 and 2953 - approximately 240 east pilots - would benefit from 20 year FO pay scales. That's 240 instead of 3190 east pilots who could benefit under the 25-30-35 year single pay scale your boy Hummel floated - and the difference between mitigating the Nic and just helping long term (over 12 years) FO's stuck in the right seat because the airline had hard times.

So instead of being so obstinate and discarding facts you don't agree with, open your eyes. What I just did to get those numbers is the same thing you could do to answer your own question, but you'd rather invent ways to keep from admitting that the west candidates for officer positions might have some good ideas. Your snake oil pitch that Hummel might not be perfect but the west candidates are just as bad isn't selling. There are clear choices - McKee for the hard liners who want to fight to be bitter end even if they retire on LOA 93, those who want DOH but if they can't get it want to use the rest of the contract provisions to offset the Nic, and those who want to move ahead. Your boy Hummel isn't in that last group no matter how hard you try to put him there...

Jim

No Jim, I do get all of that and I agree. I do not like the idea of the longevity as you listed above, it goes too far and would redistribute too much. But, Ferguson's idea is also mitigation, when he said there could be no mitigation. I think there has to be some mitigation, or we will not move forward.

You lay out Gary's plan, you said that it is a whisper so I probably won't find it. Here is all I can find on it:

"We need strategy today which will change our paradigm and promote our mutual success. We need to embrace simple solutions such as one pay rate for all equipment with incremental raises based on years of service currently utilized by British Airways and UPS as our model. The junior pilots on the E190 would be removed from welfare, senior pilots would no longer be forced to kill themselves flying the long haul all night for a few extra bucks and simultaneously the over age 60 problem goes away. We need to consider solutions that work and promote unity for all if we hope to survive the Final Scenario."

"We need to embrace simple solutions such as....." and "We need to consider solutions that work and promote unity for all if we hope to survive the Final Scenario." That is a far cry from what you listed above. Where did you get that? Have you talked to Gary Hummel, and if so did he confirm that he will try and implement that or is he thinking out loud, exploring possibilities? If you haven't talked to Gary, or you don't have his words in print where he lays that out then you really don't need to be talking about it.

Have you talked to Gary Hummel about this election and his plans? I've asked you over and over with no answer, just smart ass remarks and slurs.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But, Ferguson's idea is also mitigation, when he said there could be no mitigation.

You can choose to keep saying that, but it's only your opinion and you have every right to be wrong in your opinions. It doesn't help that you just can't admit that the west slate of candidates might have some good ideas. So if you want to keep insisting, wrongly, that helping a few hundred junior FO stuck by long term stagnation or shrinkage is equivalent to helping every east pilot at the expense of nearly all west pilots, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Jim

ps - I refuse to play your childish question game.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm not yanking your chain. I think a proposed solution is an attempt to move forward with the best information and plan possible. Mitigation to me implies focusing more on reducing the negative, perceived or otherwise, and thus focuses less on forward-looking realities. They may be similar but I don't think all proposals meet the definition of mitigation, that's why I asked. If the focus is on making the east FOs happy at the expense of others, then that is mitigation. If the proposal is to let the seniority list issue stand alone and get all pilots the most contract improvements possible, then that has little to do with mitigation IMO.
<snip>

I don't think an "industry-leading" contract is a realistic expectation regardless of who is elected to USAPA, ALPA or whoever may be in power once the NIC is resolved. The only way to achieve that is to convince Management and the BOD that such a contract is supported by operating income and it gains a true benefit to the Comany. Absent a merger with AA, I would put that as a very low probability. If the east/west pilots cannot find a way to be unified post-NIC decision, then any talk about an industry-standard contract is all or mostly just hot air. No unity, and no leverage = Kirby with little else. Therefore. I don't give much weight to what any candidate has to say, because it's all just posturing in the realm of baseless optimism.

CG,

A long time ago it was decided that the piloting profession would be better served by a union that looked at the collective good, rather than just have every pilot be his/her own free enterprise contractor. I think it has worked pretty well, but good old human nature gets in the way and people put out reasons why their share of the pie should be bigger. George Nicolau split our pie and most of us on the east think he cut it unevenly. I differ in my POV than most of my east friends in that I don't think we can put that genie back in the bottle. We failed to find a better way to split the pie and abdicated the responsibility to George Nicolau. Where I differ from most of my west friends is on what to do about it. I believe that if you have as big of a group disenfranchised with the process as there is with the east pilots(or as it would be with the west pilots with the current DOH with C&Rs scheme) then the entire group will never move forward. The disenfranchised will not pull the oar and as a matter of fact if they don't think you are trying to help them, they will row against you. It's pretty clear that has happened for the last 5 years! We have to stop that. And if you accept that you will get a larger pie by working together, then the little bit you give the disenfranchised will still leave you with more than you will get by beating each other over the head.

How do you do that? I say the first step is admitting the problem. That is one of my frustrations with F/K, as they are saying there is not problem with the award, it was fair and equitable. If it was fair and equitable, then why did Ferguson propose the F/O pay rate. After you admit there is a problem, then you get the brightest minds from both groups, put them in a room, take away the constraints and see what come out. I think that will be much easier to do after Judge Silver rules.

I talked to a west friend last night for a long time. Our relationship has been strained by this election. What occurred to me was he took my stance as a threat. That if you guys don't do this, we will do that. That's not how I've meant it. I meant as advise, that I have watched US sink into this bottomless pit of infighting, and that whoever is elected must stop it if we are to move forward and I believe that will mean mitigation.

Maybe I have not communicated that well to him or those on this board. Or maybe it is that some can't get past east=bad, west=good and that if you are east and you don't agree with Nicolau then you must be for DOH. It is probably a mixture of both.

I wish I could clean up the professor of logic joke. It really sums up the leap in "logic" that some around here take.

 

[fatherabraham]

I understand what you are saying, I'm not too happy with some that support Gary, but he really can't do anything about who supports him. On the other hand we have McKee's ACTIONS that directly led to the injunction, his support of the C18, his part in the Cleary/Mowrey regime.

Pi,

My thouhts on McKee ACTIONS:
In general terms, when I engage in any situation involving other people I know the possibility exist for a negative outcome.
It's just basic human interaction realities. Sometimes we seemingly succeed only to later see our folly. That's life!

I generally have seen/witnessed a USAPA team that represents the majority wishes.
To those westies who cry injustice (dfr) over minority status , gmab. That same logic applies to a bottom guy who as a minority believes he should be placed at top of list on his/her next birthday. Which minority group(s) rules going forward?
Injunction issue......this group needed to prove to Parker etc that we were unified. We did an excellent job! You just can't avoid conflict because of a potential bad outcome. Mgt asked for a fight and they got their wish. So be it.
I think this East group is on 2nd down-10 yard line. TD in sight. Hang in there!
Btw....my 1st person reply only means I possibly understand past USAPA leader decisions.


FA

 

[Pi brat]

You can choose to keep saying that, but it's only your opinion and you have every right to be wrong in your opinions. It doesn't help that you just can't admit that the west slate of candidates might have some good ideas. So if you want to keep insisting, wrongly, that helping a few hundred junior FO stuck by long term stagnation or shrinkage is equivalent to helping every east pilot at the expense of nearly all west pilots, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Jim

ps - I refuse to play your childish question game.

Where did I say that the west candidates didn't have any good ideas? On the contrary I said the I had very good conversation with Jeff Koontz and that we agreed on more than we disagreed on. I think Ferguson's F/O payrate scheme, as I understand it, is a great idea. It falls in line with what I've said. But if it is not mitigation what the hell is it? Here it is again in case you didn't read it:

Something I proposed and championed then and now,
is extended FO pay scales. I strongly believe that our pay scales should
extend to 85% of captain pay at 20 years, as opposed to capping them at
68.3% (East) or 66% (West). This would apply only to those who could not
otherwise hold a captain seat after twelve years. I went so far as to create a
spreadsheet and argue for the inclusion of this component."

I would amend it to take the E190 out of the equation unless we get significant pay increases on it because as it is today a captain on it is essentially getting F/O pay.

Does raise the pay of the whole group? No, just select F/Os. What does it do, why is he proposing it? Because it mitigates the affects of the merger and the Nicolau award on our F/Os. By doing that the whole group has a better chance of moving forward. The good thing about it is that it could affect west F/Os too, as some of them are now approaching or have exceed the 12 year mark and with the Nic's super seniority for the top east pilots, I think their time in the right seat will lengthen if they want to stay in PHX.

I agreed with you that the longevity rates sounds like a bad idea, but somehow you state that I'm making a fool of myself. Where I'm a fool is in ever engaging you. You are driven by something else than the welfare of this pilot group, and why should you be? YOU ARE NOT A PART OF IT ANYMORE!

You refuse to play my question game because you know the answer will make you look like a fool.

 

[Pi brat]

Injunction issue......this group needed to prove to Parker etc that we were unified. We did an excellent job!

FA,

I agree with you on a lot, but you have to be kidding me on this one. We showed how fractured we were, not how unified! And not just east and west, but east and east. The only reason it got as much notice as it did was the total mess that CLT was this summer. Why do you think they focused on it and not PHL. It took valid concerns with our company's safety culture, balled them up and threw them out the window. It gave management a 50lb hammer to use on us whenever they want. The leaders of the union were told by many not to do it, that it would fail, they have seen UA and AA fail at the same thing, yet they did it anyway. All it did was make a few guys feel better because the "stuck it to the man". Are we any closer to a contract?

Anyway, it's not too late to change your vote. ;-)

 

[CallawayGolf]

CG,

A long time ago it was decided that the piloting profession would be better served by a union that looked at the collective good, rather than just have every pilot be his/her own free enterprise contractor. I think it has worked pretty well, but good old human nature gets in the way and people put out reasons why their share of the pie should be bigger. George Nicolau split our pie and most of us on the east think he cut it unevenly. I differ in my POV than most of my east friends in that I don't think we can put that genie back in the bottle. We failed to find a better way to split the pie and abdicated the responsibility to George Nicolau. Where I differ from most of my west friends is on what to do about it. I believe that if you have as big of a group disenfranchised with the process as there is with the east pilots(or as it would be with the west pilots with the current DOH with C&Rs scheme) then the entire group will never move forward. The disenfranchised will not pull the oar and as a matter of fact if they don't think you are trying to help them, they will row against you. It's pretty clear that has happened for the last 5 years! We have to stop that. And if you accept that you will get a larger pie by working together, then the little bit you give the disenfranchised will still leave you with more than you will get by beating each other over the head.

How do you do that? I say the first step is admitting the problem. That is one of my frustrations with F/K, as they are saying there is not problem with the award, it was fair and equitable. If it was fair and equitable, then why did Ferguson propose the F/O pay rate. After you admit there is a problem, then you get the brightest minds from both groups, put them in a room, take away the constraints and see what come out. I think that will be much easier to do after Judge Silver rules.

I talked to a west friend last night for a long time. Our relationship has been strained by this election. What occurred to me was he took my stance as a threat. That if you guys don't do this, we will do that. That's not how I've meant it. I meant as advise, that I have watched US sink into this bottomless pit of infighting, and that whoever is elected must stop it if we are to move forward and I believe that will mean mitigation.

Maybe I have not communicated that well to him or those on this board. Or maybe it is that some can't get past east=bad, west=good and that if you are east and you don't agree with Nicolau then you must be for DOH. It is probably a mixture of both.

I wish I could clean up the professor of logic joke. It really sums up the leap in "logic" that some around here take.

Thanks for that response. The tone is much more conversational which I appreciate. Hopefully I can return the same kind of tone/sentiment back.

Seems to me, based only on your posts rather than knowing you personally, that you fall into the optimistic category of problem solving whereas I certainly fall into the realistic category. Where you see a chance for mitigation and reconciliation, I see near-certain failure based on the RLA and the level of distrust and vitriol that has gone back and forth for nearly seven years.

To me, the NIC has less than a 1% chance of being overturned or re-written (arbitrary percentage, but based on my best understanding of the law). As long a a judge can interpret and establish policy from the bench, then anything can happen in a courtroom, but by and large judges still adhere to the federal code far more than they deviate from it, especially in something so black and white as a collective bargaining agreement (TA) and the successor union's rights and responsibilities to the same. So absent an activist, agenda-driven liberal judge or judges, the only way for the NIC to be changed now would be for Congress to pass a bill that specifically allows USAPA to freely negotiate despite the provisions of the TA and the DFR statutes. So, whatever Congress does, it would have to permit the TA signed in 2005 to be subject to the new law in 2012(?) which is no small challenge all on its own. I suppose the DFR statutes could be modified going forward, but again that seems highly unlikely that a majority of 535 representatives would care enough about US pilots to pass such a provision.

On the mitigation front, that certainly has more of a chance, but would enough east pilots recognize the value of those mitigation benefits to get over their hatred for the NIC? Conversely, would enough west pilots, after all the east pilots have done or tried to do to them, be willing to accept the mitigations that greatly benefit the east with little or no direct or current benefit to the majority of the west? That too seems unrealistic given the fact that many west pilots don't view the NIC as being unfair to the east at all. So if the west believe NIC split the pie as near to center as he could (or perhaps even a bit more going east than west), then what could possibly compel a majority of west pilots to accept the financial sections of the JCBA to be split even more in the east's favor than what any standard (non-mitigation) contract would already do given the pay scale disparity between east and west that will have to be made up predominately to the east just to get everyone to parity. Those are some very big pills to swallow for the west given the fact that some of the east have treated the west like criminals or with complete disdain for something the west really had very little to do with (construction of the NIC and entering into binding arbitration).

Given the circumstances, I don't see much success or optimism for brokering a new fair and equitable solution with this group. To me the most likely outcome is that Silver rules on Count 1, the NMB compels USAPA to return to the table in good faith to get a TA out to the pilots. There is a chance that a TA with the NIC will pass, but if it doesn't or if USAPA fails to produce a TA through negotiations, then the self-help will eventually be enacted and Management will give everyone the NIC+Kirby that could have or should have been put in place in 2007. That's a long and arduous road to get right back to where this whole thing started, but no one ever said this process involved rational thinking people. Anyway, that's my position as a realist rather than an optimist.

 

[luvn737s]

Injunction issue......this group needed to prove to Parker etc that we were unified. We did an excellent job! You just can't avoid conflict because of a potential bad outcome. Mgt asked for a fight and they got their wish. So be it.
I think this East group is on 2nd down-10 yard line. TD in sight. Hang in there!
FA

Charlotte Neuter Clinic

Perhaps you should contact these folks to learn how to best adapt to your neutering. Even a dog can't live in denial.

 

[fatherabraham]

FA,

I agree with you on a lot, but you have to be kidding me on this one.
Anyway, it's not too late to change your vote. ;-)

Pi,

Have never ranked higher than lowly soldier in these squirmishes. Not my place to lead or Monday morning quarterback .
We all have our tipping point, and mgt is totally unrealistic. They may believe they won that battle. I believe their losing many small battles on an hourly basis and too foolish to acknowledge . The bean counters are thus ok with present day losses and I'm ok with continuing this unspoken engagement .

Less than 2 hours, I warned ya ;-)

FA

 

[cleardirect]

Where did I say that the west candidates didn't have any good ideas? On the contrary I said the I had very good conversation with Jeff Koontz and that we agreed on more than we disagreed on. I think Ferguson's F/O payrate scheme, as I understand it, is a great idea. It falls in line with what I've said. But if it is not mitigation what the hell is it? Here it is again in case you didn't read it:

Something I proposed and championed then and now,
is extended FO pay scales. I strongly believe that our pay scales should
extend to 85% of captain pay at 20 years, as opposed to capping them at
68.3% (East) or 66% (West). This would apply only to those who could not
otherwise hold a captain seat after twelve years. I went so far as to create a
spreadsheet and argue for the inclusion of this component."

I would amend it to take the E190 out of the equation unless we get significant pay increases on it because as it is today a captain on it is essentially getting F/O pay.

Does raise the pay of the whole group? No, just select F/Os. What does it do, why is he proposing it? Because it mitigates the affects of the merger and the Nicolau award on our F/Os. By doing that the whole group has a better chance of moving forward. The good thing about it is that it could affect west F/Os too, as some of them are now approaching or have exceed the 12 year mark and with the Nic's super seniority for the top east pilots, I think their time in the right seat will lengthen if they want to stay in PHX.

I agreed with you that the longevity rates sounds like a bad idea, but somehow you state that I'm making a fool of myself. Where I'm a fool is in ever engaging you. You are driven by something else than the welfare of this pilot group, and why should you be? YOU ARE NOT A PART OF IT ANYMORE!

You refuse to play my question game because you know the answer will make you look like a fool.

All of this discussion, you call it mitigation. Some may call it negotiations.

If now after 7 years of this merger and 5 years of the Nicolau why are you willing to look at F/O pay scales and think that would fix the problem? If so what the hell was the last 4 years of usapa all about????? You guys could have accepted the Nicolau and we all could have worked out some contract issues years ago.

Once again it comes back to the east F/O's demanding something extra and holding up the rest of the company.

 

[Move2CLT]

.
I think this East group is on 2nd down-10 yard line. TD in sight. Hang in there!


FA

Are you sure youre in the right game? Your turnovers alone are embarrassing and you have yet to cross the 50 even once.