US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

Question

If Judge Silver says USAPA has to use the Nic, Is the snapshot when the Nic was awarded, or at the date Silver renders a decision?

In other words if a pilot was a captain at the Nic award and now is a F/O, does that pilot still have no bump or flush captain position that he/she can go back to without having to worry about a west pilot taking that postion that has many years less service.

wopr

Just vote for McKee. Everything is fine.

 

[BoeingBoy]

In other words if a pilot was a captain at the Nic award and now is a F/O, does that pilot still have no bump or flush captain position that he/she can go back to without having to worry about a west pilot taking that postion that has many years less service.

You misunderstand no bump/no flush apparently. Assuming it's included, which it usually is, a no bump/no flush applies to two specific things.

No bump means that pilot A from one side can't displace pilot B from the other side just because pilot A has more seniority on the integrated list than pilot B. Normal displacement and vacancy bidding procedures, whatever they are in the combined contract, still apply so presumably if pilot C is displaced he can in turn displace pilot D from the other side if more senior. In other words, you can't be displaced by anyone for no reason other than that they're more senior than you on the combined list.

No flush refers to opening up every position (in the airline or in a portion of the airline) for rebid using the combined list, so every position would be awarded to the most senior bidder using the combined list. So with no flush, the company couldn't open every CLT (or the whole airline) position as vacancies and award all those positions to the most senior pilots on the combined list that wanted them. Again, normal displacement and vacancy bidding per the combined contract would still be in effect.

Both are designed to do the same thing - keep those who lose seniority from losing their job for no reason than other than the combined list went into effect. Neither do anything to stop the normal movement of pilots due to additions, shifts, or reductions of flying.

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

Management has agreed to continue negotiations on a limited basis and the NAC (two-member committee with no Professional Negotiator) is scheduled to meet with the Company on March 27-28 in Tempe, which is good news. That will give the NAC two days in ten weeks of negotiating. With the Permanent Injunction in place, no NMB assisted negotiations, no ability to reach a 30-day cooling off period, no E&FA Department, and no Professional Negotiator, I wonder how the two returning furloughees who have no Negotiating Committee training, are going to get the pilots an industry standard contract after almost 4 years? At least they closed one economic section - dead head 100% pay and credit, which is a start.

 

[Pi brat]

I re-read it twice for extra credit. Are you making a distinction between proposed solutions and mitigation? Also this was from 2010, so are his view the same now or have thy changed in the last two years? Either way, the cart is before the horse when you try to mitigate the seniority issues with longevity pay when everyone is waiting for Silver to tell them what they already know. Furthermore, if you are going to get Management to agree to non-standard rates then you have to give them something in exchange or why would they accept it? A disunified pilot group asking for more than Managent's offer isn't very compelling towards coming to an agreement.

Do you think I support all of Ferguson's viewpoints?

I'm missing the distinction between proposed solutions and mitigation. I'd say Ferguson's idea was a proposal whose purpose is to mitigate the Nicolau award's affects on the bottom of those on the east list, and perhaps a safety net for all. Did you read his text? It explains it, or are you just yanking my chain like Jim?

Have they changed? Are you reading his campaign blogs?

"Campaign Consistency

Dear US Airways Pilots,



The links below represent an inclusive record of all USAPA campaign material I have published to date. This record includes messages from the EVP Special Election in the Spring of 2010, as well as literature from the PHX Vice-Chairman Special Election held in the Fall of 2010:



Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 30APR10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 07MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 10MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 12MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 14MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 17MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 18MAY10
Eric Ferguson EVP Campaign Message of 19MAY10
Eric Ferguson PHX Vice Chair Campaign Message of 27AUG10
Eric Ferguson PHX Vice Chair Campaign Message of 22OCT10
Eric Ferguson PHX Vice Chair Campaign Message of 27OCT10
Eric Ferguson Presidential Campaign Message 06FEB12
Eric Ferguson Presidential Campaign Message 16FEB12



I encourage you to examine the information I have disseminated in the past, and contemplate the consistency and stability of my message over the years. Unlike other candidates in this race, you can review everything I have written and find it to have been accurate, if not prophetic. Imagine where the pilots of US Airways would be today had they chosen the path which I have long recommended.



Do not miss this chance to change the course of your future, and our union for the better. Everyone else has had their chance, and our pilots have nothing to show for it. Now is the time to vote for Eric Ferguson for USAPA President, Jeff Koontz for USAPA Vice President, and Ken Holmes for USAPA Executive Vice President. Real change is now just over the horizon.



Sincerely,

Eric Ferguson
February 17, 2012"

He lists this idea where he is talking about his consistency.

I never said anything about longevity pay, at least not what is being tossed around like Jim did. His ideas was a lot simpler and didn't affect the whole group.

"when everyone is waiting for Silver to tell them what they already know" Didn't we cover this?

Your point about agreeing with everything about Ferguson is well taken. I'm trying to get some answers and when I post the questions on here, the answers find me, but not directly from Ferguson. He never replied to any of my emails.

This the post of the week: "A disunified pilot group asking for more than Managent's offer isn't very compelling towards coming to an agreement." Yet, the boys from PHX WILL get us an INDUSTRY-LEADING contract by telling the east to suck it.

 

[Pi brat]

Management has agreed to continue negotiations on a limited basis and the NAC (two-member committee with no Professional Negotiator) is scheduled to meet with the Company on March 27-28 in Tempe, which is good news. That will give the NAC two days in ten weeks of negotiating. With the Permanent Injunction in place, no NMB assisted negotiations, no ability to reach a 30-day cooling off period, no E&FA Department, and no Professional Negotiator, I wonder how the two returning furloughees who have no Negotiating Committee training, are going to get the pilots an industry standard contract after almost 4 years? At least they closed one economic section - dead head 100% pay and credit, which is a start.

Hey, you encouraged them.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Hey, you encouraged them.

Say what? I encouraged whom?

 

[Pi brat]

Management has agreed to continue negotiations on a limited basis and the NAC (two-member committee with no Professional Negotiator) is scheduled to meet with the Company on March 27-28 in Tempe, which is good news. That will give the NAC two days in ten weeks of negotiating. With the Permanent Injunction in place, no NMB assisted negotiations, no ability to reach a 30-day cooling off period, no E&FA Department, and no Professional Negotiator, I wonder how the two returning furloughees who have no Negotiating Committee training, are going to get the pilots an industry standard contract after almost 4 years? At least they closed one economic section - dead head 100% pay and credit, which is a start.

I count 10 sections T/Aed on the comprehensive proposal. Am I missing something?

Not very good, but more than 1.

 

[Pi brat]

Say what? I encouraged whom?

The people that formed USAPA. Remember?

 

[CapnCockroach]

There is just no good way to merge the two groups. Doing so will probably cause an accident, something none of us want. Parting the airline out is probably the best route.

What? And give up?

 

[luvn737s]

Yet, the boys from PHX WILL get us an INDUSTRY-LEADING contract by telling the east to suck it.

Yes in exchange for giving up the boogey man of lost attrition that Cleary gave you, you will get an industry leading contract. What about that deal do you have a problem with?

 

[USA320Pilot]

I count 10 sections T/Aed on the comprehensive proposal. Am I missing something?

Not very good, but more than 1.

Pi,

I said 1 economic section - the other 9 are non-economic. But, I was wrong there too because DH is not a section. It's part of a section. Therefore, I should have been more clear and said the NAC has closed one point and zero economic sections of a new contract. At least the NAC can get paid for Domicile visits, working on a survey, and then after almost four years of negotiations ask the pilots what they want while receiving their FPL.

USA

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'm missing the distinction between proposed solutions and mitigation. I'd say Ferguson's idea was a proposal whose purpose is to mitigate the Nicolau award's affects on the bottom of those on the east list, and perhaps a safety net for all. Did you read his text? It explains it, or are you just yanking my chain like Jim?

I'm not yanking your chain. I think a proposed solution is an attempt to move forward with the best information and plan possible. Mitigation to me implies focusing more on reducing the negative, perceived or otherwise, and thus focuses less on forward-looking realities. They may be similar but I don't think all proposals meet the definition of mitigation, that's why I asked. If the focus is on making the east FOs happy at the expense of others, then that is mitigation. If the proposal is to let the seniority list issue stand alone and get all pilots the most contract improvements possible, then that has little to do with mitigation IMO.
<snip>

I never said anything about longevity pay, at least not what is being tossed around like Jim did. His ideas was a lot simpler and didn't affect the whole group.

"when everyone is waiting for Silver to tell them what they already know" Didn't we cover this?

Your point about agreeing with everything about Ferguson is well taken. I'm trying to get some answers and when I post the questions on here, the answers find me, but not directly from Ferguson. He never replied to any of my emails.

This the post of the week: "A disunified pilot group asking for more than Managent's offer isn't very compelling towards coming to an agreement." Yet, the boys from PHX WILL get us an INDUSTRY-LEADING contract by telling the east to suck it.

I don't think an "industry-leading" contract is a realistic expectation regardless of who is elected to USAPA, ALPA or whoever may be in power once the NIC is resolved. The only way to achieve that is to convince Management and the BOD that such a contract is supported by operating income and it gains a true benefit to the Comany. Absent a merger with AA, I would put that as a very low probability. If the east/west pilots cannot find a way to be unified post-NIC decision, then any talk about an industry-standard contract is all or mostly just hot air. No unity, and no leverage = Kirby with little else. Therefore. I don't give much weight to what any candidate has to say, because it's all just posturing in the realm of baseless optimism.

 

[Reed Richards]

Pi,

At least the NAC can get paid for Domicile visits, working on a survey, and then after almost four years of negotiations ask the pilots what they want while receiving their FPL.

USA

Amen.

Their fate will be decided around 2pm tomorrow. DiOrio needs to return to his job as a line pilot, as do a number of FPL hogs in USAPA. Also, whatever the outcome, I predict Cleary, Mowrey, and probably Parrella/Brookman will all be out on medicals within months. None of them will ever soil themselves with us unwashed out here on the line. Gary Hummel is our only choice, and I have already said I think Ferguson is more than qualified, just not the right man now politically for the job. I look forward to the seniority issue being settled soon so he can maybe be the next USAPA president.

I make a promise to you all..if McKee makes it past the primary tomorrow, you will never hear from me again on this airline forum, or any other. If this pilot group buys into the whisper campaign that the founder of USAPA and running mate of Gary would ever cave on DOH and the NIC, then they deserve what they get. Consider this my last post here ever if McKee wins, and the end of my participation in anything union, including perhaps membership. Have to give that one some thought..but if things go bad tomorrow, you won’t ever hear me talking about it. I will just act.

All done now, no amount of chatter here will change enough votes to make any difference. And no sense in my commenting on the recent Silver briefs until this threshold is crossed.

Hope I disappoint you all with another post here tomorrow.

RR

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

"Consider this my last post here ever if McKee wins, and the end of my participation in anything union, including perhaps membership. Have to give that one some thought..but if things go bad tomorrow, you won’t ever hear me talking about it. I will just act."

Careful RR, that kind of talk could get you named in a RICO suit. I hope to see you back tomorrow, and afterword.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm missing the distinction between proposed solutions and mitigation. I'd say Ferguson's idea was a proposal whose purpose is to mitigate the Nicolau award's affects on the bottom of those on the east list, and perhaps a safety net for all. Did you read his text? It explains it, or are you just yanking my chain like Jim?

True to form, the usual attitude of not liking the answer so dismiss whoever gives the answer.

You have a longevity based pay scale now - annual increases up to 12 years of longevity on the pay scale for your equip/seat. Your not mentioning that doesn't mean anything. I mentioned Hummel's proposed single scale longevity pay for more years as an example of MITIGATION - giving the Nic in section 22 then taking back one of the perceived west benefits of the Nic somewhere else. Such a proposal would put mostly east pilots at the upper end of the pay scale and most west pilots at the lower end - MITIGATING the Nic. It does through the pay scale what DOH would do with seniority (which gives the capability to earn more) - lots of east pilots toward the top end and lots of west pilots toward the bottom. Thus it mitigates the Nic.

The idea of FO pay scales extending out to 20 years under certain circumstances would apply to relatively few pilots. FO's only for starters, so that omits over half the pilot group. Those unable to hold a captain position cuts the number by a lot more. I mentioned the E190 - in the last bid awarded (bid 12-02 will be awarded in a few days) the junior 190 captain was #2953. So every east FO senior to him could hold a captain position but chose not to - the 20 FO pay scales don't apply to them. Varini, the bottom east pilot (not including third listers) was #3254 - but he hasn't got 12 years of longevity yet so wouldn't qualify for 20 year FO pay scales. The most junior east pilot (not including third listers) who would benefit (starting in a few days) is #3190. So the east FO's between #3190 and 2953 - approximately 240 east pilots - would benefit from 20 year FO pay scales. That's 240 instead of 3190 east pilots who could benefit under the 25-30-35 year single pay scale your boy Hummel floated - and the difference between mitigating the Nic and just helping long term (over 12 years) FO's stuck in the right seat because the airline had hard times.

So instead of being so obstinate and discarding facts you don't agree with, open your eyes. What I just did to get those numbers is the same thing you could do to answer your own question, but you'd rather invent ways to keep from admitting that the west candidates for officer positions might have some good ideas. Your snake oil pitch that Hummel might not be perfect but the west candidates are just as bad isn't selling. There are clear choices - McKee for the hard liners who want to fight to be bitter end even if they retire on LOA 93, those who want DOH but if they can't get it want to use the rest of the contract provisions to offset the Nic, and those who want to move ahead. Your boy Hummel isn't in that last group no matter how hard you try to put him there...

Jim