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Thanks for that response. The tone is much more conversational which I appreciate. Hopefully I can return the same kind of tone/sentiment back.

Seems to me, based only on your posts rather than knowing you personally, that you fall into the optimistic category of problem solving whereas I certainly fall into the realistic category. Where you see a chance for mitigation and reconciliation, I see near-certain failure based on the RLA and the level of distrust and vitriol that has gone back and forth for nearly seven years.

To me, the NIC has less than a 1% chance of being overturned or re-written (arbitrary percentage, but based on my best understanding of the law). As long a a judge can interpret and establish policy from the bench, then anything can happen in a courtroom, but by and large judges still adhere to the federal code far more than they deviate from it, especially in something so black and white as a collective bargaining agreement (TA) and the successor union's rights and responsibilities to the same. So absent an activist, agenda-driven liberal judge or judges, the only way for the NIC to be changed now would be for Congress to pass a bill that specifically allows USAPA to freely negotiate despite the provisions of the TA and the DFR statutes. So, whatever Congress does, it would have to permit the TA signed in 2005 to be subject to the new law in 2012(?) which is no small challenge all on its own. I suppose the DFR statutes could be modified going forward, but again that seems highly unlikely that a majority of 535 representatives would care enough about US pilots to pass such a provision.

On the mitigation front, that certainly has more of a chance, but would enough east pilots recognize the value of those mitigation benefits to get over their hatred for the NIC? Conversely, would enough west pilots, after all the east pilots have done or tried to do to them, be willing to accept the mitigations that greatly benefit the east with little or no direct or current benefit to the majority of the west? That too seems unrealistic given the fact that many west pilots don't view the NIC as being unfair to the east at all. So if the west believe NIC split the pie as near to center as he could (or perhaps even a bit more going east than west), then what could possibly compel a majority of west pilots to accept the financial sections of the JCBA to be split even more in the east's favor than what any standard (non-mitigation) contract would already do given the pay scale disparity between east and west that will have to be made up predominately to the east just to get everyone to parity. Those are some very big pills to swallow for the west given the fact that some of the east have treated the west like criminals or with complete disdain for something the west really had very little to do with (construction of the NIC and entering into binding arbitration).

Given the circumstances, I don't see much success or optimism for brokering a new fair and equitable solution with this group. To me the most likely outcome is that Silver rules on Count 1, the NMB compels USAPA to return to the table in good faith to get a TA out to the pilots. There is a chance that a TA with the NIC will pass, but if it doesn't or if USAPA fails to produce a TA through negotiations, then the self-help will eventually be enacted and Management will give everyone the NIC+Kirby that could have or should have been put in place in 2007. That's a long and arduous road to get right back to where this whole thing started, but no one ever said this process involved rational thinking people. Anyway, that's my position as a realist rather than an optimist.

As I've said before, very few people call me an optimist. I'm just not ready to quit.

The mitigation would be the result of the Nic being it. Would the west accept it? If this board is any indication, no. It depends on if they agree with my assessment of what moving forward will take. How has the forceful method worked with the minority? Do you think it will work better with the majority? An eye for a n eye or turn the other cheek? Treaty of Versailles, or Marshall Plan? From what I've seen from the west slate, it is Treaty of Versailles and blind an toothless. We'll see. Whatever it is my game plan for the last 20 years has been for failure, so it will be nothing new for me.
 
All of this discussion, you call it mitigation. Some may call it negotiations.

If now after 7 years of this merger and 5 years of the Nicolau why are you willing to look at F/O pay scales and think that would fix the problem? If so what the hell was the last 4 years of usapa all about????? You guys could have accepted the Nicolau and we all could have worked out some contract issues years ago.

Once again it comes back to the east F/O's demanding something extra and holding up the rest of the company.

We are one day going to have to accept the Nic or DOH. What we do after that is what I'm talking about. We haven't done anything in the last 7 years because neither side has been willing to give up on Nic or DOH.

My friend told me yesterday that DOH was so bad for him that he HAD to fight it. I told him it is the same for those on the east that are junior to me..........You can lay the blame on the east F/Os but they are not alone in this.
 
Pi,

Have never ranked higher than lowly soldier in these squirmishes. Not my place to lead or Monday morning quarterback .
We all have our tipping point, and mgt is totally unrealistic. They may believe they won that battle. I believe their losing many small battles on an hourly basis and too foolish to acknowledge . The bean counters are thus ok with present day losses and I'm ok with continuing this unspoken engagement .

Less than 2 hours, I warned ya ;-)

FA

Maybe I Monday morning quarterback because I have told them over and over again that they were on the wrong path and they don't listen. Bill did seem different in the last CLT meeting, so maybe he sees it and will lead in a different direction than Cleary did. I hope so, and if he wins I will support him just I will any other candidate that wins.

I agree with the bean counter statement.

I'll be here in a few hours with congrats for the winners.
 
We are one day going to have to accept the Nic or DOH. What we do after that is what I'm talking about. We haven't done anything in the last 7 years because neither side has been willing to give up on Nic or DOH.

My friend told me yesterday that DOH was so bad for him that he HAD to fight it. I told him it is the same for those on the east that are junior to me..........You can lay the blame on the east F/Os but they are not alone in this.
It is about the east F/O's. It always has been. Just read these boards. It is all about upgrades and attrition. Even your mitigation is about helping the F/O's. As BB pointed out it does nothing for the captains.

usapa is staffed by F/O's. My guess would be McKee's supporters are F/O's
 
Even your mitigation is about helping the F/O's. As BB pointed out it does nothing for the captains.

usapa is staffed by F/O's. My guess would be McKee's supporters are F/O's

It DOES do something for the captains. As a matter of fact it does more for the captains because they will always get the bigger slice of the pie. What it does is gets everyone rowing in the same direction so that we can actually get us all to a better place.
 
usapa is staffed by F/O's.

Wrong. Cleary, Mowrey, Hummel, Bradford, Javurek, McKee, Dopp, all captains. Many, if not most BPR reps are captains. Unless displace by the Nic windfall, the F/O rates as discribed by Ferguson would do nothing for them, except help end the infighting that has plagued us for years. Do you want to learn from out mistakes, or continue them?
 
Wrong. Cleary, Mowrey, Hummel, Bradford, Javurek, McKee, Dopp, all captains. Many, if not most BPR reps are captains. Unless displace by the Nic windfall, the F/O rates as discribed by Ferguson would do nothing for them, except help end the infighting that has plagued us for years. Do you want to learn from out mistakes, or continue them?

Were they all captains at the time of the merger?
 
Pi,

My thouhts on McKee ACTIONS:
In general terms, when I engage in any situation involving other people I know the possibility exist for a negative outcome.
It's just basic human interaction realities. Sometimes we seemingly succeed only to later see our folly. That's life!

I generally have seen/witnessed a USAPA team that represents the majority wishes.
To those westies who cry injustice (dfr) over minority status , gmab. That same logic applies to a bottom guy who as a minority believes he should be placed at top of list on his/her next birthday. Which minority group(s) rules going forward?
Injunction issue......this group needed to prove to Parker etc that we were unified. We did an excellent job! You just can't avoid conflict because of a potential bad outcome. Mgt asked for a fight and they got their wish. So be it.
I think this East group is on 2nd down-10 yard line. TD in sight. Hang in there!
Btw....my 1st person reply only means I possibly understand past USAPA leader decisions.


FA

My holy Mary mother of God, what friggin' planet are you on? You are so disconnected from reality, where do I begin? The scary thing is, you'll probably win the election and your win will be more years of failure for the entire pilot group.

It's no wonder you guys have screwed this whole thing up so bad.
 
Wrong. Cleary, Mowrey, Hummel, Bradford, Javurek, McKee, Dopp, all captains. Many, if not most BPR reps are captains. Unless displace by the Nic windfall, the F/O rates as discribed by Ferguson would do nothing for them, except help end the infighting that has plagued us for years. Do you want to learn from out mistakes, or continue them?
Bradfford was an F/O when this started. Javurek just upgraded. 5 of the 8 east BPR members are F/O's. I also said STAFFED. How many committee members are F/O's compared to capts?

But I agree with you. The mitigation you are talking about helps the east F/O's. Exactly what I said this entire usapa exercise has been to get the east F/O's something more. While the rest of us pay for their selfishness.
 
It DOES do something for the captains. As a matter of fact it does more for the captains because they will always get the bigger slice of the pie. What it does is gets everyone rowing in the same direction so that we can actually get us all to a better place.
Have you met Doug Parker? Have you been paying attention to the NAC updates for the last 4 years?

This company is only going to put so much money on the table. so if you want a 20 F/O scale that pays 85% or the same as a captain that is fine. But understand that the company is going to take that money from someone and move it to the F/O's.

If all of the captains are willing to take a lower rate so the east F/O's can get what they think they deserve give it a try. So it does not do anything for the captains to extend a 20 year pay raise.

The entire usapa experiment has been for the east F/O's. If the east captains are OK with that fine. But let's not try and cover up the real reason for the last 5 years.
 
Bradfford was an F/O when this started. Javurek just upgraded. 5 of the 8 east BPR members are F/O's. I also said STAFFED. How many committee members are F/O's compared to capts?

But I agree with you. The mitigation you are talking about helps the east F/O's. Exactly what I said this entire usapa exercise has been to get the east F/O's something more. While the rest of us pay for their selfishness.

I believe that nic4us said you were a west F/O that lost his captain bid after the merger. Is that true, if you care to respond. If you don't want to answer that is fine.
 
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