US Pilots Labor Discussion

[crazystnic]

I've never understood why USAPA is messing around with conditions and restrictions on their seniority proposal. Is it just because its the right thing to do? Does USAPA only want what's best for the west? Or perhaps they are afraid that a DOH list with no C&Rs will not sit well with a federal judge.

Still, if DOH is the "gold standard", it meets within the "wide range of reasonableness" called for by the RLA or as interpreted by case law, and it is consistent with the USAPA constitution, then why include them at all. Just push a straight DOH list across the table and demand that it be accepted by Management. It seems like DOH with C&Rs actually weakens USAPA's claims that DOH is legal and is objectively fair to every US pilot based on best practices for unions and membership. If DOH is fair to the west then there should be no need to complicate the issue with needless restrictions on its use.

Bottom line: is DOH a fair method of integration for US Airways pilots or not?

It certainly is more reasonable than the nic.... There are a lot of bright people on here. Some not so bright. If we threw whole thing out we could come up with solution, but I'm not holding my breath

 

[traderjake]

You're not getting a do over.

 

[Pi brat]

Better correct your boy Pi because he says that under Nicolau east captains will become F/O's.

If west captains are forced out of PHX the C&R do nothing to protect them from being downgraded.

I guess you are talking about me. I cannot say for sure that under Nic east captains will become F/Os, but I feel that if we keep the east filling of vacancies and with my prediction of the PHX base shrinking, they will. But, Nic or DOH I assume no bump no flush, so neither will happen overnight.

USAPA's plan does have some C&Rs, although I think they are inadequate and I can't come up with any that iron out the shift in relative positions that come along with it. I don't know if anyone can. But here is how the merger committee explains how one of them would work:

3. How does the ratio system work when the company reduces the amount of flying we do?
First of all, the ratio system is only applicable when there are reductions to the amount of flying that either pilot group is performing as of contract signing, and as subsequently adjusted one year after the contract signing. The ratio system only applies to captain positions; it does not apply to first officer positions.
The mechanics of the process are as follows:
A snapshot of the number of positions available in each applicable aircraft position will be recorded. For this example, we will say there are an equal number of AB320 captain positions West and East, 100 each. Now we will assume that 20 AB320 positions are eliminated in PHX. There are now 180 total positions available, down from the original 200. In order to maintain the original ratio of 1 to 1, system-wide there will be 90 positions allocated for East pilots and 90 positions will be allocated for West pilots. The overall result is that there will be a loss of 20 actual bid positions in PHX, the loss of which will be shared with the East pilot group. This means that 10 West pilots will lose their seat and 10 West AB320 captains will be permitted to displace to the East operation, displacing 10 East AB320 captains, and thus maintaining the original ratio. Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There you go again with the lies. West captains do not become fo because of doh with crs

Ah, the east answer to everything - C&R's. Do you have any idea when USAPA will propose these magical C&R's that will keep the west captains from sliding backward???? It's coming up on 4 years since USAPA first proposed it's DOH list and they haven't proposed the C&R's you suggest yet...

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

If we threw whole thing out we could come up with solution

Why would you think that? "We" were given the opportunity without the cardboard sword of "DOH in our Constitution" hanging over everyone.

Now, if you want to hold a Constitutional Convention and throw out the USAPA C&BL's for a do-over with west input, then you might be onto something.

I bet that wasn't what you were thinking. You want some Daddy to take the west pilots to Wye River and force them to, as Cartman, (the poster child for the east) would say, "Respect My Authoriti!!!!"

 

[Beancounter]

It certainly is more reasonable than the nic.... There are a lot of bright people on here. Some not so bright. If we threw whole thing out we could come up with solution, but I'm not holding my breath

Actually DOH is NOT more reasonable, it's a total staple job. Relative seniority was far left field, DOH is far right field, the Nic was in between the two, leaning left. DOH is a blatant seniority grab/theft when used in our situation. I have to laugh when a radical eastie wants to talk about modifying the Nic. I say, "OK what's your idea," and they pull out a DOH list. "Whhhooooaaa, there nut case, that's a DOH list, not a Nic list you want to modify."

 

[luvn737s]

Sure it's LOA93 wages, but the PBGC monies on top make it more than you guys are making.
breeze

You go in and tell your fresh meat, er I mean New Hires, that. I bet they'll really jump at the chance to help you.

 

[Beancounter]

You go in and tell your fresh meat, er I mean New Hires, that. I bet they'll really jump at the chance to help you.

Yeah, I give it about 3-5 years and then you'll start to see third listers slamming radical easties up against door frames.

 

[CallawayGolf]

It certainly is more reasonable than the nic.... There are a lot of bright people on here. Some not so bright. If we threw whole thing out we could come up with solution, but I'm not holding my breath

By whose definition is DOH more reasonable than the NIC? What are the criteria for determining degrees of reasonableness?

But you can't throw the whole thing out and pretend it is 2005 all over again. USAPA is constitutionally committed to the principles of DOH and the collective bargaining agreement (aka the TA) calls for the ALPA merger process to be followed (which it was) and for the result of that process to be presented to Management (which it was), and for Management to offer its acceptance of the list if it met the criteria called for in the TA (which it did and it was accepted).

Bright people or less than bright people have nothing to do with it anymore. It is a matter of law for both sides. Either the law says USAPA can determine their own seniority system (which is why I questioned the C&Rs) or the law says that a non-NIC list would be a DFR. The time for bright and reasonable people to work together has passed. 99.9% of the pilots could come up with a reasonable solution to fix this outside of the courts, but if the other 0.1% decide that the solution is worth fighting, then its right back to court to determine if an unquestionably ripe DFR claim against USAPA and Management can be won. Addington indicates in all likelihood that it would be won and then all of that hard work to find a post-arbitration solution would be for not as the legal rights of the few outweigh the preferences of the many.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah, I give it about 3-5 years and then you'll start to see third listers slamming radical easties up against door frames.

Really? Geez.

 

[crazystnic]

By whose definition is DOH more reasonable than the NIC? What are the criteria for determining degrees of reasonableness?

But you can't throw the whole thing out and pretend it is 2005 all over again. USAPA is constitutionally committed to the principles of DOH and the collective bargaining agreement (aka the TA) calls for the ALPA merger process to be followed (which it was) and for the result of that process to be presented to Management (which it was), and for Management to offer its acceptance of the list if it met the criteria called for in the TA (which it did and it was accepted).

Bright people or less than bright people have nothing to do with it anymore. It is a matter of law for both sides. Either the law says USAPA can determine their own seniority system (which is why I questioned the C&Rs) or the law says that a non-NIC list would be a DFR. The time for bright and reasonable people to work together has passed. 99.9% of the pilots could come up with a reasonable solution to fix this outside of the courts, but if the other 0.1% decide that the solution is worth fighting, then its right back to court to determine if an unquestionably ripe DFR claim against USAPA and Management can be won. Addington indicates in all likelihood that it would be won and then all of that hard work to find a post-arbitration solution would be for not as the legal rights of the few outweigh the preferences of the many.

Thought so. That is why the courts will decide. I've said over and over separate ops favors many many east pilots,

 

[Beancounter]

By whose definition is DOH more reasonable than the NIC? What are the criteria for determining degrees of reasonableness?

But you can't throw the whole thing out and pretend it is 2005 all over again. USAPA is constitutionally committed to the principles of DOH and the collective bargaining agreement (aka the TA) calls for the ALPA merger process to be followed (which it was) and for the result of that process to be presented to Management (which it was), and for Management to offer its acceptance of the list if it met the criteria called for in the TA (which it did and it was accepted).

Bright people or less than bright people have nothing to do with it anymore. It is a matter of law for both sides. Either the law says USAPA can determine their own seniority system (which is why I questioned the C&Rs) or the law says that a non-NIC list would be a DFR. The time for bright and reasonable people to work together has passed. 99.9% of the pilots could come up with a reasonable solution to fix this outside of the courts, but if the other 0.1% decide that the solution is worth fighting, then its right back to court to determine if an unquestionably ripe DFR claim against USAPA and Management can be won. Addington indicates in all likelihood that it would be won and then all of that hard work to find a post-arbitration solution would be for not as the legal rights of the few outweigh the preferences of the many.

Exactly, they were warned repeatedly not to vote in USAPA, because it would end the chances of modifying the Nic. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[BoeingBoy]

3. How does the ratio system work when the company reduces the amount of flying we do?
First of all, the ratio system is only applicable when there are reductions to the amount of flying that either pilot group is performing as of contract signing, and as subsequently adjusted one year after the contract signing. The ratio system only applies to captain positions; it does not apply to first officer positions.
The mechanics of the process are as follows:
A snapshot of the number of positions available in each applicable aircraft position will be recorded. For this example, we will say there are an equal number of AB320 captain positions West and East, 100 each. Now we will assume that 20 AB320 positions are eliminated in PHX. There are now 180 total positions available, down from the original 200. In order to maintain the original ratio of 1 to 1, system-wide there will be 90 positions allocated for East pilots and 90 positions will be allocated for West pilots. The overall result is that there will be a loss of 20 actual bid positions in PHX, the loss of which will be shared with the East pilot group. This means that 10 West pilots will lose their seat and 10 West AB320 captains will be permitted to displace to the East operation, displacing 10 East AB320 captains, and thus maintaining the original ratio. Displaced pilots will be placed within any base bid category in system-wide seniority order. Displacement captain positions will be filled by a seniority bid from within the existing applicable aircraft type captain bid category. Keep in mind that this procedure is bi-directional; East pilots may displace West if East flying is reduced. West captains displaced to the East will retain protected position rights in PHX and LAS.

You do see the shortcomings of that, as well as the other C&R's, for the west pilots I hope...

Jim

 

[Beancounter]

Really? Geez.

Hey, most of them probably don't care Nic or Doh, but when you're financially holding their head's under water so you can screw the west, I gaaaaaruntee they're gonna get pissed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I've said over and over separate ops favors many many east pilots,

So you agree that DOH favors the east. We have a convert...

Jim