US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

It certainly is more reasonable than the nic.... There are a lot of bright people on here. Some not so bright. If we threw whole thing out we could come up with solution, but I'm not holding my breath

You see, here is the problem.

You east pilots don't listen or and certainly don't learn. How many times have we told you there is no compromise? There is no way to compromise, there is no need to compromise, there is no desire to compromise, there is no do over. When are you guys going to get it through your think skulls the Nicolau is the list?

The bright people (Nicolau) already figured it out and found the solution.

The longer you hold on to the hope it will change the longer you will wait and the more disappointed you will be. I swear the collective IQ of east pilots must be in the single digits.It is a simple concept.

 

[nic4us]

The court doesn't give a rats ### if you ever ratify anything! Your right to a contract that suits your expectations doesn't even come close to trumping the Federally mandated rights of the West.

I disagree Res,

The intentional frustration of reaching a new contract is just as onerous as as reaching a contract that is in violation of the DFR.

In other words, intentionally forcing seperate ops is a DFR. Actually a hybrid DFR, as the company is benefitting from usapa's violation of West pilot's rights to have representation and bargain for our benefit.

 

[Pi brat]

You see, here is the problem.

You east pilots don't listen or and certainly don't learn. How many times have we told you there is no compromise? There is no way to compromise, there is no need to compromise, there is no desire to compromise, there is no do over. When are you guys going to get it through your think skulls the Nicolau is the list?

The bright people (Nicolau) already figured it out and found the solution.

The longer you hold on to the hope it will change the longer you will wait and the more disappointed you will be. I swear the collective IQ of east pilots must be in the single digits.It is a simple concept.

Yet that simple thought has gotten us exactly nowhere in 5 years. Even if Judge Silver rules in a way that ends the SLI fight, we still have a long way to go with a terribly divided pilot group. Maybe the I.Q. of the collective group needs to be questioned.

 

[Pi brat]

I disagree Res,

The intentional frustration of reaching a new contract is just as onerous as as reaching a contract that is in violation of the DFR.

In other words, intentionally forcing seperate ops is a DFR. Actually a hybrid DFR, as the company is benefitting from usapa's violation of West pilot's rights to have representation and bargain for our benefit.

Good luck with that one. I think the Wake trial led you guys into thinking that DFR suits are the answer to everything. They are not.

There will be no DFR if the pilots of this airline do not ratify a contract. It will simply be each pilot making an economic decision. Will the financial gain of the new contract be worth the cost of what the Nic does to their relative position moving forward and the damage it would do in a future merger. If it's worth it to the majority, it will pass. If it is not it won't. Then we will go through the other steps of the process and if the company will not/cannot come up with more economic gains we will have to decide whether to accept it or go for self-help. If the judge ties the company's hands on section 22, then economics are the only other thing the company has to offer us, and the TA WE ALL ACCEPTED says no joint ops until a joint contract. What court is going to tell me I have to vote for XXX contract? The process is in place. The only way you are going to get around that part of it is to get the majority seeing it your way and VOTE.

 

[cleardirect]

"Well Judge, it doesn't matter, but just to keep you up on current events, our boys did real good".

I'm sure in the interest of full disclosure Dr. Jacobs told the judge that amazingly the west had exactly the number of pilots running as slots available, while the east had approx. 3 times the number of east candidates for each office. For appeal board there were 3 west pilots for 3 slots, while there were 9 east pilots running for the 3 slots. In almost every category the east vs. west votes were around 2 to 1. I'm sure he did.

Why do they call him Dr. while he is acting as an attorney? Do they call Jeff First Officer in divorce court?

How many MIGS are there in PHX?

usapa filing

USAPA further submits that discovery will support USAPA’s facts, showing that
several former America West pilots and The Army of Leonidas, which funded the
plaintiffs in the Addington case and the Addington Defendants in this case, have
deliberately obstructed, interfered with, and frustrated the efforts of USAPA, as the
certified bargaining representative of all of the pilots, to work with and communicate
with former America West pilots to explain to them the details of the current USAPA
Conditions and Restrictions Proposal on seniority and to engage former America West Pilots in legitimate discussions to improve that proposal. USAPA has tried to engage in
substantive discussions with former America West pilots as part of its function as their
bargaining representative. The fact that USAPA’s seniority proposal has not changed
since it was submitted to US Airways in September 2008 results from the refusal of US
Airways to address the proposal in negotiations and from the fact that USAPA has not
been able to engage former America West pilots in legitimate substantive discussions
about the proposal because of this obstruction.

You can’t figure this out why Dr. Jacob filed the election results? Why do I have to explain this to you? Usapa wants to waste time and money. They want to do discovery in order to delay the answer from the court, the judge see right through it. The discovery they want is to prove a false theory that Leonidas is preventing the west pilots from looking at or accepting the BS C&R. usapa has continually said that Leonidas does not represent the west but only a small group of angry or junior west pilots. So here you have a secret ballot where every single west pilot in the privacy of their home voted for the Loenidas guys and support using the Nicolau. No discovery required the judge knows everything she needs to know about the support of the entire west pilot group.

Why is this so difficult for you guys to understand?

All the 2:1 tells the judge is that there are more of you than west pilots.

As far as having more candidates on the east. I am sure you don't recognize it but that is leadership and unity. The west is unified behind our leadership. We did not need to put up a lot of candidates. The west is 100% behind proven and demonstrated leadership.If you guys ever had any you would know what I am talking about.

 

[cleardirect]

Good luck with that one. I think the Wake trial led you guys into thinking that DFR suits are the answer to everything. They are not.

There will be no DFR if the pilots of this airline do not ratify a contract. It will simply be each pilot making an economic decision. Will the financial gain of the new contract be worth the cost of what the Nic does to their relative position moving forward and the damage it would do in a future merger. If it's worth it to the majority, it will pass. If it is not it won't. Then we will go through the other steps of the process and if the company will not/cannot come up with more economic gains we will have to decide whether to accept it or go for self-help. If the judge ties the company's hands on section 22, then economics are the only other thing the company has to offer us, and the TA WE ALL ACCEPTED says no joint ops until a joint contract. What court is going to tell me I have to vote for XXX contract? The process is in place. The only way you are going to get around that part of it is to get the majority seeing it your way and VOTE.

Which is exactly what we had 5 years ago. The company was going to have to bring enough money to get a majority of people to vote for a contract. usapa was a waste of time to get us back to the same place we started.

Yes it is a DFR if usapa and you east guys keep screaming separate ops. In fact it is a DFR against east pilots also.

 

[Pi brat]

usapa filing




You can’t figure this out why Dr. Jacob filed the election results? Why do I have to explain this to you? Usapa wants to waste time and money. They want to do discovery in order to delay the answer from the court, the judge see right through it. The discovery they want is to prove a false theory that Leonidas is preventing the west pilots from looking at or accepting the BS C&R. usapa has continually said that Leonidas does not represent the west but only a small group of angry or junior west pilots. So here you have a secret ballot where every single west pilot in the privacy of their home voted for the Loenidas guys and support using the Nicolau. No discovery required the judge knows everything she needs to know about the support of the entire west pilot group.

Why is this so difficult for you guys to understand?

All the 2:1 tells the judge is that there are more of you than west pilots.

As far as having more candidates on the east. I am sure you don't recognize it but that is leadership and unity. The west is unified behind our leadership. We did not need to put up a lot of candidates. The west is 100% behind proven and demonstrated leadership.If you guys ever had any you would know what I am talking about.

Relax clear, you don't have to explain anything to me. I'm not making the decisions. In the big picture each side is doing what they are doing for one reason:TO WIN! That's it. I doubt most of it will matter.

As far as you only having to elect a few candidates, it was leadership. Leadership to get everyone one behind just a few candidates so you wouldn't split the vote. Smart. But 100% behind them. I don't know about that. I've had a little insight into the west rifts. AWAPPA vs. AOL?

 

[Pi brat]

Which is exactly what we had 5 years ago. The company was going to have to bring enough money to get a majority of people to vote for a contract. usapa was a waste of time to get us back to the same place we started.

Yes it is a DFR if usapa and you east guys keep screaming separate ops. In fact it is a DFR against east pilots also.

Good luck with that and all the other things you guys are screaming DFR about. That is one of the issues I had with the west candidates. We can play this DFR game for the rest of our careers if you like and have the money. You file one, the east files one...........

 

[nic4us]

Good luck with that one. I think the Wake trial led you guys into thinking that DFR suits are the answer to everything. They are not.

There will be no DFR if the pilots of this airline do not ratify a contract. It will simply be each pilot making an economic decision. Will the financial gain of the new contract be worth the cost of what the Nic does to their relative position moving forward and the damage it would do in a future merger. If it's worth it to the majority, it will pass. If it is not it won't. Then we will go through the other steps of the process and if the company will not/cannot come up with more economic gains we will have to decide whether to accept it or go for self-help. If the judge ties the company's hands on section 22, then economics are the only other thing the company has to offer us, and the TA WE ALL ACCEPTED says no joint ops until a joint contract. What court is going to tell me I have to vote for XXX contract? The process is in place. The only way you are going to get around that part of it is to get the majority seeing it your way and VOTE.

Care to point out to me where in the TA ( the purpose of which is to facilitate merging operations ) has a permanent seperate ops clause.

The point being, if usapa intentionally frustrates contract negotiations to futher seperate ops, they are commiting a DFR toward the pilot group. No getting around that fact, and it appears that is what they are doing. The bargaining agents primary responsibility is to ratify and enforce a collective agreement with the company. usapa has sought, since it denied the West section 6 request, to bargain for only the east 2/3rds of the group, and in the alternative, to not bargain at all.

The DJ is the last line.

If it goes usapa's way, then get a DOH list passed and the West files the "unquestionably ripe" DFR and hopefully gets the list barred by injunction pending the DFR lawsuit.

If it does not go usapa's way, usapa is done if they do not get the NMB back at the table, and pronto. A DFR for intentionally forcing seperate ops and failing to bargain FOR the pilot group hanging over their head. Which BTW, would not involve the company, as the company could fiegn innocence, "hey, we wanted to negotiate, but they went and intentionally got themselves parked". Actually, the company might even help the east and West pilots that would be suing usapa, by providing testimony on their behalf to escape the hybrid DFR, as they try and prove they have not colluded with usapa.


Oh, one more thing. Concerning addressing Jacobs as doctor. How did the court address Sullenberger?

 

[nic4us]

Good luck with that and all the other things you guys are screaming DFR about. That is one of the issues I had with the west candidates. We can play this DFR game for the rest of our careers if you like and have the money. You file one, the east files one...........

I cannot wait to see what DFR the east would file.

I guess the arguement would go like this. usapa failed to break the law on our behalf. Good luck with that one.

 

[Pi brat]

Care to point out to me where in the TA ( the purpose of which is to facilitate merging operations ) has a permanent seperate ops clause.

The point being, if usapa intentionally frustrates contract negotiations to futher seperate ops, they are commiting a DFR toward the pilot group. No getting around that fact, and it appears that is what they are doing. The bargaining agents primary responsibility is to ratify and enforce a collective agreement with the company. usapa has sought, since it denied the West section 6 request, to bargain for only the east 2/3rds of the group, and in the alternative, to not bargain at all.

The DJ is the last line.

If it goes usapa's way, then get a DOH list passed and the West files the "unquestionably ripe" DFR and hopefully gets the list barred by injunction pending the DFR lawsuit.

If it does not go usapa's way, usapa is done if they do not get the NMB back at the table, and pronto. A DFR for intentionally forcing seperate ops and failing to bargain FOR the pilot group hanging over their head. Which BTW, would not involve the company, as the company could fiegn innocence, "hey, we wanted to negotiate, but they went and intentionally got themselves parked". Actually, the company might even help the east and West pilots that would be suing usapa, by providing testimony on their behalf to escape the hybrid DFR, as they try and prove they have not colluded with usapa.


Oh, one more thing. Concerning addressing Jacobs as doctor. How did the court address Sullenberger?

The separate ops clause is in there, but I agree with you that it is not "you can do what you want" clause, and that is not how I laid it out in my post. I'm not talking about the union delaying negotiations, I'm talking about pilots deciding if the best contract that can be negotiated is worth what it costs. If the union intentionally delayed a contract, then yeah, I'd say you would have a case. But, the union has a ton of latitude, don't they? I believe the company's intention has been delay, but I can't prove it.

I've said that I think a Nic inclusive contract that is good enough will pass a vote. The problem is getting there. Last year we had a 1% profit margin. I believe we were the only major US airline that had no fuel hedging in place and we don't now. It worked out okay last year, but if we are the only ones with no hedge it puts us a position of potentially having higher costs than our competitors. I believe Parker has used our fight as his hedge.

USAPA has asked the company to continue negotiations outside of mediation and presented a comprehensive contract proposal last year. How does that fit with what you are claiming.

I don't care how the addressed Sully. I said that comment was TIC.

 

[Pi brat]

I cannot wait to see what DFR the east would file.

I guess the arguement would go like this. usapa failed to break the law on our behalf. Good luck with that one.

Do you think that if Silver issues a ruling that USAPA HAS to use the Nic and the BPR doesn't file an appeal against something that is in our C&BLs that some on the east wouldn't file a DFR? They might not win, they are hard to win, but I'd put money on it being filed.

 

[crazystnic]

You see, here is the problem.

You east pilots don't listen or and certainly don't learn. How many times have we told you there is no compromise? There is no way to compromise, there is no need to compromise, there is no desire to compromise, there is no do over. When are you guys going to get it through your think skulls the Nicolau is the list?

The bright people (Nicolau) already figured it out and found the solution.

The longer you hold on to the hope it will change the longer you will wait and the more disappointed you will be. I swear the collective IQ of east

pilots must be in the single digits.It is a simple concept.

Just like we have told you.

the NIC is not in play until we have a contract and binding ratification..Which ALPA and USAPA has told you won't be happening anytime soon.

It's really pretty simple isn't it...
I swear the collective IQ of the west must be in the single digits.

It's a simple concept isn't it ....

 

[CallawayGolf]

Do you think that if Silver issues a ruling that USAPA HAS to use the Nic and the BPR doesn't file an appeal against something that is in our C&BLs that some on the east wouldn't file a DFR? They might not win, they are hard to win, but I'd put money on it being filed.

If a federal court compels the parties to use the NIC then I would place a bet that an east DFR suit for not using DOH would get dismissed at the earliest stage in the process. The RLA is certainly screwed up federal policy but not so much that a union's C&BLs could somehow carry more legal weight than a bargaining agreement that was tested and affirmed in a federal court.

 

[cleardirect]

Do you think that if Silver issues a ruling that USAPA HAS to use the Nic and the BPR doesn't file an appeal against something that is in our C&BLs that some on the east wouldn't file a DFR? They might not win, they are hard to win, but I'd put money on it being filed.

Required vs. objective. Judge Silver does not care what is the usapa C&BL.

If the objectives of the usapa C&BL had any authority why don't we amend the constitution to say that US Airways pilots will be the highest paid most respected pilots in the country? If it is in the C&BL it must be true right.

Explain to me how an objective in the usapa C&BL is going to force an arbitrator to award DOH in the next merger? What is usapa going to say? Mr. Arbitrator we have an objective of DOH so you are required to give us what we want.

How do you enforce the usapa objective on the arbitrator or another pilot group? How would you enforce an objective of being the highest paid pilots in America on the company? How do you enforce usapa's objective on a federal judge?

What would they filed a DFR for? But I say go for it. We have seen the leadership skills from the east so far. If someone wants to step up and put 10's of thousands of their own dollars on the table. Set up an organization to collect millions of dollars for east pilots. Find a lawyer willing to take the case and promise to pay him. File the law suit and wait several years for it to work it's way through the court system. More power to you.

But in the mean time we would have a contract in place (remember ripeness). Everyone would see that the Nicolau is not the destruction to your career that you all think it is. More third listers who don't care and a shrinking junior group to pay the bills. Good luck with that. In the mean time these east pilots would be paying dues to defend against themselves. I would like to finally see the organizational and leadership skills of east pilots when they are not forced to pay. Hey I hear that Seham is available. Maybe he would take the case pro bono just to help you out.