US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

32 East Captains and 8 East FO's.

attrition .... you have earned it.

Don't spend all those 40 retirements in one place.

And remember they have to last 6 months.

 

[cleardirect]

so much for all the retirments out east coming from the right seat.
New designation on the bid. The symbol ++ indicates a pilot to retire inside of 12 months.

32 East Captains and 8 East FO's.

attrition .... you have earned it.

20% of the retirements are F/O's. That is a huge number. At any other airline 95-99% of the retirements come from the left seat. How many of those 40 hold a position and will cause an opening?

You earned attrition? How? The only thing you do to get it is not get fired and wait around for someone else to leave.

 

[PullUp]

Here's the east age 65 retirements/year. East side only.

Year # TL
2012 8 8
2013 144 152
2014 201 353
2015 179 532
2016 227 759
2017 237 996
2018 258 1254
2019 255 1509
2020 240 1749
2021 248 1997
2022 197 2194
2023 217 2411
2024 164 2575
2025 153 2728

Averages 17.48/mo for 13 years.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Tell your buddies in Labor Relations to negotiate in good faith, for one.
It takes two to tango and the co. isn't interested in dancing.
Enjoy what you have because that's all there will be until a motivAAting event occurs.
Meanwhile, attrition on the east will give the opportunity for the 20+ year FO's to get their left seat.
No bump, no flush.
Cheers.

You mean Labor Relations won't budge on S22 of the contract? Management isn't negotiating in good faith? Perhaps you need to let the NMB know about this and see what they say.

With such a formidable and determined union such as USAPA, the Company should be on it's knees begging USAPA to let them sign off on a hybrid DFR contract with industry-leading pay rates. What gives?

 

[Beancounter]

Tell your buddies in Labor Relations to negotiate in good faith, for one.
It takes two to tango and the co. isn't interested in dancing.
Enjoy what you have because that's all there will be until a motivAAting event occurs.
Meanwhile, attrition on the east will give the opportunity for the 20+ year FO's to get their left seat.
No bump, no flush.
Cheers.

Mmmmm, if that's the case, why is is that ALPA had almost finished negotiations, and now after 4+ years USAPA looks like they've barely started. You seriously need to wake up. The company is taking advantage of the fact that USAPA doesn't want a contract. Is the company making it worse? Yes, but they are not the main force behind the hold up. It's YOU.

 

[PullUp]

20% of the retirements are F/O's. That is a huge number. At any other airline 95-99% of the retirements come from the left seat. How many of those 40 hold a position and will cause an opening?

You earned attrition? How? The only thing you do to get it is not get fired and wait around for someone else to leave.

'Lifestyle FO's'=guys that could hold left seat but prefer to tour Italy instead as a FO on the intl equip.
Or, guys that commute and like having a block schedule rather than warming that crash pad bed for the next guy (icky).
Other airlines have mandatory upgrades. Not so here. On the west side, it amounts to economic incentives driving u/g's.
On the east, lifestyle trumps small economic gains in some situations. Certainly between 330 FO and reserve 320 CO.
Also on the bottom, the lowly 190 FO. Guys are staying as blockholders versus 'upgrading' to reserve group 2 due to lifestyle.
In addition, 190 FOs are flying minimum months because the economic gains are not sufficient to warrant the extra days spent at work. Read that again and tell me that the co. is benefiting from paying such low wages on the 190.

How does one earn attrition. By waiting in line, ordered by seniority, determined by date of hire.
cheers.

 

[Phoenix]

Here's the east age 65 retirements/year. East side only.

Year # TL
2012 8 8
2013 144 152
2014 201 353
2015 179 532
2016 227 759
2017 237 996
2018 258 1254
2019 255 1509
2020 240 1749
2021 248 1997
2022 197 2194
2023 217 2411
2024 164 2575
2025 153 2728

Averages 17.48/mo for 13 years.

Oh, no! Now we have to read posts by retired-ALPOphile-Westies telling us that all those retirements are from reserve-190-FOs sitting in the lagoona.

 

[CallawayGolf]

<snip>
How does one earn attrition. By waiting in line, ordered by seniority, determined by date of hire.
cheers.

You were accurate until the last clause in your sentence. Waiting is correct. Seniority is correct. However, seniority does not equal date of hire, especially for the pilots of LCC. At LCC seniority will be ordered by the NIC. Heck, even USAPA wants to say that seniority is DOH with C&Rs, so it's really not seniority=DOH even in USAPA fantasy land is it?

 

[JetMonkey]

Or instead of waiting... Take DOH with C&R's, and let's ALL of us get a freaking pay raise like we deserve.

Because I adhere to what a ruling says. And your C&R's are nothing but crap for the west and YOU know it.

 

[PullUp]

Mmmmm, if that's the case, why is is that ALPA had almost finished negotiations, and now after 4+ years USAPA looks like they've barely started. You seriously need to wake up. The company is taking advantage of the fact that USAPA doesn't want a contract. Is the company making it worse? Yes, but they are not the main force behind the hold up. It's YOU.

I'm not an officer in the union. Neither am I a member of the negotiating committee. Just an interested bystander watching the show. As an observer, I see no willingness on the part of the company to negotiate, in good faith or otherwise.
Yes, the seniority sideshow is the elephant in the room, everyone knows this. And everyone on the east side pretty much is resigned to the fact that the judge will decide the issue. When that is complete and over with, we'll see how interested the co. is in negotiating. My bet is that things won't change at all. The 'just say no' method of negotiating will still be there.
I'm heartened by your admission that the company is taking advantage of us and our situation. I guess they think "it's the right thing to do".
Cheers.

 

[Phoenix]

Here's the east age 65 retirements/year. East side only.

Year # TL
2012 8 8
2013 144 152
2014 201 353
2015 179 532
2016 227 759
2017 237 996
2018 258 1254
2019 255 1509
2020 240 1749
2021 248 1997
2022 197 2194
2023 217 2411
2024 164 2575
2025 153 2728

Averages 17.48/mo for 13 years.

And to think that the 9th identified the seniority dispute without actually seeing a Westy go into uncontrolable, frothing at mouth babbling, at the sight of such clear data.

 

[PullUp]

And to think that the 9th identified the seniority dispute without actually seeing a Westy go into uncontrolable, frothing at mouth babbling, at the sight of such clear data.

Can't really argue with facts.
Cheers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Here's the east age 65 retirements/year. East side only.
Averages 17.48/mo for 13 years.

Just an itsy-bitsy detail - how many of those are on medical and won't leave a vacancy for anyone to move up to when they retire?

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

How many of those 40 hold a position and will cause an opening?

Since the only place the "++" indicating retiring within 12 months appears is on the bid award, they all do barring anything that takes them off the line before they retire.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

'Lifestyle FO's'=guys that could hold left seat but prefer to tour Italy instead as a FO on the intl equip.
Or, guys that commute and like having a block schedule rather than warming that crash pad bed for the next guy (icky).
Other airlines have mandatory upgrades. Not so here. On the west side, it amounts to economic incentives driving u/g's.
On the east, lifestyle trumps small economic gains in some situations. Certainly between 330 FO and reserve 320 CO.
Also on the bottom, the lowly 190 FO. Guys are staying as blockholders versus 'upgrading' to reserve group 2 due to lifestyle.
In addition, 190 FOs are flying minimum months because the economic gains are not sufficient to warrant the extra days spent at work. Read that again and tell me that the co. is benefiting from paying such low wages on the 190.

How does one earn attrition. By waiting in line, ordered by seniority, determined by date of hire.
cheers.

Thanks for clearing the up. Your comments should now end the whining and complaining from the east F/O's about never upgrading under the Nicolau. There is an entire thread talking about a longevity scale that would pay F/O's close to what a captain makes. Too damn bad boys. Lifestyle or money is a decision we all make. If you choose lifestyle sit in the right seat but get paid what it pays. If you want to upgrade take the f'ing upgrade. But don't complain about not being able to upgrade then tell us it is a choice and you want to get paid too.

If you don't want to upgrade stop worrying about the west taking them. Stop complaining you can't upgrade but choose not to. Skiles walked into court and cried that he could not upgrade. Very quickly that was proven wrong he could upgrade just not where and how he wanted to upgrade.

Seniority gentlemen. Learn what it means. one month or 17 years if you are the bottom of the list your seniority is junior. So 8 F/O's that can't or won't upgrade under separate ops. I don't want to hear another thing about east F/O's that can't upgrade because of the Nicolau.

Boy you don't get to have the lifestyle, the money, and the seat while requiring the west to pay for it.