US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

What about FO's who have never been furloughed on the upper end, were in the left seat for a period of time, got bumped back to the right seat due to the company parking 101 jets, and just want to finish their careers with a few more years in the left seat......those guys are willing to lay it all on the line instead of having Clear or Nic step in ahead of them leaving them in the right seat till retirement. DOH protects these guys and NIC screws them.

I think you mistake what you see in your mirror what what I see in my mirror...

Nearly all those FO's that were senior in 2005 would upgrade under the Nic - they would have still been senior FO's after the merger. The senior west FO's would have been integrated with the senior east FO's, meaning both would upgrade based on combined attrition. What you want is for the west to pay the price for company actions prior to the merger. It's the company that bumped east pilots back to FO. It's the company that was responsible for sticking them there for years. Why should the west pay the price for the company's actions? So you can climb over the west pilots to get your self-proclaimed entitlement to a certain job? Whether intentionally or not (and I know which I believe to be the case) you want your dreams to come true at someone else's expense. That's exactly what you've been cheering about since the merger. As you say, the east shrank yet all the furloughees that wanted to came back plus hiring, yet the west has furloughed. Heck, the company even furloughed extra new hires so the east furloughed pilots who took jobs out west wouldn't be furloughed and convinced an arbitrator the the three lists in the TA really meant four lists. And you loved it, ignoring that it represented a transfer of furloughs from east to west.

And you and others talk about stealing jobs...

Jim

 

[Beancounter]

agree 100 Percent , we can wrap this up if we keep the attrition on each side.

You lost me. The courts would have to allow the company to accept a modified Nic, they haven't ruled yet. Let's say they rule that the company can accept a modified list or non-Nic list. Why would you want the Nic modified, wouldn't you just come up with a new list? Unless the courts allow it, we lost the ability to modify the Nic when ALPA left the property. Even if we could, the Nic had a five year fence on it. Five years has already passed. How long is the duration you're pushing for?

 

[Move2CLT]

It is not a "company" job.....we are not merged and the TA is not finalized yet. You are licking your chops, wanting to take advantage of the East pilots and accelerate your career advancement. After we are merged, then by all means, take what you can get...but the East pilots have much to say about the way you are trying to leap frog in the integration.

breeze

Nonsense breeze. You guys want to regain your seats via the west.

Not happening.

 

[Move2CLT]

agree 100 Percent , we can wrap this up if we keep the attrition on each side.

Should have thought of that before you guys went all in.

Now it's Nic unaltered.

Too bad, so sad.

 

[Beancounter]

AH, spoken like a true "scab in waiting"! 2/3's of the pilots on strike would indeed cripple US Air...no matter how many West scabs there were.

seajay

If it looked like USAPA was going to strike, I'd start looking for work elsewhere, because I won't cross a strike line. Seriously ask yourself though, how many west pilots are going to put their families under financial stress for a contract that will staple them to the bottom of the east's list and give them a pay cut. C'mon, wake up.

 

[Beancounter]

I think what he means is that the west has 400 ish retirements in the next 9 years and the east has 1700 ish retirements in the next 9 years and he is pissed that USAPA has not accepted the NIC award so he can get in on the easts 1700 retirements they brought to the merger instead of waiting for the 400 that the west brough to the merger. So therefore he is saying the east is stealing west jobs.

They talk a good line about this and that but in the end it is all about attrition. The "what if USAirways furloughs 1000 pilots" is just to deflect what the true issue is between our groups. If we furlough 1000 pilots when we only have around 4400 active pilots it is not going to matter. that is the end of USAirways.

Here is one that you wont get any west takers for. We use the NIC list but fence the retirements on each side. East Captain retires East F/O takes his seat, West captain retires west F/O takes his seat. Captain seats triggered by growth go per NIC list. If they were worried about east stealing seats they should be all over something like this.

I am positive we can pass NIC with no problems if the above attrition protection was put in place. Now we will see about 50 posts from west guys bashing me for even suggesting such a foul idea etc etc etc.

You lost me. The courts would have to allow the company to accept a modified Nic, they haven't ruled yet. Let's say they rule that the company can accept a modified list or non-Nic list. Why would you want the Nic modified, wouldn't you just come up with a new list? Unless the courts allow it, we lost the ability to modify the Nic when ALPA left the property. Even if we could, the Nic had a five year fence on it. Five years has already passed. How long is the duration you're pushing for?

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

If it looked like USAPA was going to strike, I'd start looking for work elsewhere, because I won't cross a strike line. Seriously ask yourself though, how many west pilots are going to put their families under financial stress for a contract that will staple them to the bottom of the east's list and give them a pay cut. C'mon, wake up.

How, exactly, would a DOH list put west pilots at the bottom of any list, presuming attrition would be in play? Did you fail math, time and again?

 

[mrbreeze]

I think you mistake what you see in your mirror what what I see in my mirror...

Whether intentionally or not (and I know which I believe to be the case) you want your dreams to come true at someone else's expense.

Jim

First....your opening sentence wreaks of stupidity.

Second.....Wrong about wanting to take advantage of someone. After 25 yrs with this company and investing over $9 billion to keep our jobs intact, it is not entitlement when a pilot is refusing to accept that a guy 15 yrs junior to him is placed ahead of him, via a flawed arbirtated list, blocking him from regaining his left seat before retirement in the next, short 3-5 yrs.....along with the fact that that West pilot has more time to capture his financial gains before retiring. So, IMO, the greed comes from the West pilot who will not consider a renegotiation of the SLI.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

agree 100 Percent , we can wrap this up if we keep the attrition on each side.

Should have made that deal when it was time to deal. If it is so important you east boys should have come off of DOH/LOS like the arbitrator told you and captured what you think is valuable attrition.

To late now.

 

[cleardirect]

Never furloughed......yet. However, F/O's I flew with in 2001 that were furloughed are now Captains at Jetblue. So, in answer to your question, it worked out really well for them compared to what they could have come back to.
cheers.

Well good for them. They were the smart ones. The ones I don't understand are the ones that were furloughed, had jobs somewhere else. Read the Nicolau decided to return to US Airways and are now bitching about seniority.

 

[cleardirect]

First....your opening sentence wreaks of stupidity.

Second.....Wrong about wanting to take advantage of someone. After 25 yrs with this company and investing over $9 billion to keep our jobs intact, it is not entitlement when a pilot is refusing to accept that a guy 15 yrs junior to him is placed ahead of him, via a flawed arbirtated list, blocking him from regaining his left seat before retirement in the next, short 3-5 yrs.....along with the fact that that West pilot has more time to capture his financial gains before retiring. So, IMO, the greed comes from the West pilot who will not consider a renegotiation of the SLI.

breeze

You personally gave up $9 billion? How much have you given up after 2007 continuing to refuse accepted what we all agreed to .

In your opinion the list is flawed. In the opinion of the guy authorized to do it. The list is fine. In the opinion of the board that sets the policy the list is fine. Seems you are the only one that thinks it is flawed.

I don't care what you had before the merger. That was a different company. I don't care if the west has more time to make up for your loses. Your failed career is not my concern. If you never get back to the left seat than you should be trying to figure out a way to get a new contract fast. Because my guess is that even under separate ops you are not going to get back to the left seat. Makes you real junior.

BTW NO renegotiation of the seniority list. You guy had your chance in 2005. That train has left the station.

 

[Beancounter]

First....your opening sentence wreaks of stupidity.

Second.....Wrong about wanting to take advantage of someone. After 25 yrs with this company and investing over $9 billion to keep our jobs intact, it is not entitlement when a pilot is refusing to accept that a guy 15 yrs junior to him is placed ahead of him, via a flawed arbirtated list, blocking him from regaining his left seat before retirement in the next, short 3-5 yrs.....along with the fact that that West pilot has more time to capture his financial gains before retiring. So, IMO, the greed comes from the West pilot who will not consider a renegotiation of the SLI.

breeze

You say you're not trying to take advantage of someone, then a few sentences later you state the West pilot has more time to capture his financial gains. You're justifying stepping on the west pilot, because he has more time to pick himself back up and makeup for YOUR failed career. I'm all for helping out my fellow pilot, but I'm not going to lay down and die to make up for your failed carrier (career).

 

[mrbreeze]

You personally gave up $9 billion? How much have you given up after 2007 continuing to refuse accepted what we all agreed to .

In your opinion the list is flawed. In the opinion of the guy authorized to do it. The list is fine. In the opinion of the board that sets the policy the list is fine. Seems you are the only one that thinks it is flawed.

I don't care what you had before the merger. That was a different company. I don't care if the west has more time to make up for your loses. Your failed career is not my concern. If you never get back to the left seat than you should be trying to figure out a way to get a new contract fast. Because my guess is that even under separate ops you are not going to get back to the left seat. Makes you real junior.

BTW NO renegotiation of the seniority list. You guy had your chance in 2005. That train has left the station.

Thanks...you have made my point about the West pilots wanting to leap frog in SLI.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

You say you're not trying to take advantage of someone, then a few sentences later you state the West pilot has more time to capture his financial gains. You're justifying stepping on the west pilot, because he has more time to pick himself back up and makeup for YOUR failed career. I'm all for helping out my fellow pilot, but I'm not going to lay down and die to make up for your failed carrier (career).

Stop pounding your chest about how great the future was in your career at AWA......a failed carrier also.

breeze

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Should have made that deal when it was time to deal. If it is so important you east boys should have come off of DOH/LOS like the arbitrator told you and captured what you think is valuable attrition.

To late now.

What part of "Binding Arbitration" do they not get?