US Pilots Labor Discussion

[PullUp]

I didn't say Kirby was industry standard and I don't think anyone else did either. My point was that absent a unified pilot group the Kirby is the best you will see unless the Company offers more to close this mess of a process out. If a better offer comes, it will be solely at the discretion of Management and not because of anything USAPA might do.

What was said (I looked back, FODASE made the statement a few pages back - sorry if I attributed it to you) was that 5 years ago there could have been an 'industry standard' contract here......
The only contract offered by the company was 'kirby'.
So, I stand by my statement that if the S/L was settled 5 years ago, we still would not have an 'industry standard' contract. Not even close.
In fact it could be argued that if the pilots had accepted the kirby, we would be in a worse position looking at another merger attempt in the near future.
I agree that in order to facilitate a desired outcome in the future, the company would increase its offer. They did during the UAL merger attempt.

 

[PullUp]

Only if you believe the Kirby was the best the company would do at that time. Who was it that said "Hey, might as well shoot for the moon....nothing ventured, nothing gained." That applies to the company too.

Oh, that's right...it was you...

Jim

Sure, it does work both ways. Negotiations 101 stuff. But ALPO always approached negotiations with "how can we help you" and "what can we give up today" attitudes. Thus, the crappy contracts industry wide that protect ALPO national first and the line pilot last.
ALPO never met a contract it wouldn't sign...and the same attitude is still prevalent amongst some of the pilots here today.
With that attitude the pilots will never get any contract gains - ever.
So was the Kirby the 'best the company would do' - yes - but not the best they could have done.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sure, it does work both ways. Negotiations 101 stuff.
<omit usual 'it's all ALPA's fault>
So was the Kirby the 'best the company would do' - yes - but not the best they could have done.

Both sides shoot for the moon first, but the company's first proposal was the "best the company would do."

Contradict yourself in the same post much???

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Sure, it does work both ways. Negotiations 101 stuff. But ALPO always approached negotiations with "how can we help you" and "what can we give up today" attitudes. Thus, the crappy contracts industry wide that protect ALPO national first and the line pilot last.
ALPO never met a contract it wouldn't sign...and the same attitude is still prevalent amongst some of the pilots here today.
With that attitude the pilots will never get any contract gains - ever.
So was the Kirby the 'best the company would do' - yes - but not the best they could have done.

Complain about ALPA all you want. But it was ALPA the negotiated your industry +1%. You know the contract that you all think was so great. IT was ALPA that negotiated your scope clause you all think is so great.

Also it was your local ALPA guys that negotiated the contract. AND it was you guys that voted for the contract. What have you guys all said? Nobody can make you vote for a contract. If it was so bad why did it pass?


If you want to blame someone for the "bad" contracts you have look in the mirror.

 

[mrbreeze]

Educate yourself

Thanks!!!

 

[PullUp]

Both sides shoot for the moon first, but the company's first proposal was the "best the company would do."

Contradict yourself in the same post much???

Jim

No sir, I quoted you when you stated "would do". That's a whole lot different than what the company "could do".
C- for critical reading.
F for dissing posters.
Sheesh.

 

[mrbreeze]

Let me ask this, 700. All those outside investors except Air Wisconsin who provided DIP financing in exchange for a fee for departure contract, agreed to buy equity in the combined company, NOT the old US. IOW, the money wasn't available until after the merger. So where did the old US get the money to buy HP?

In addition, there were the owners of old US and HP. Who paid the owners of the old US? How much? Who paid the owners of HP? How much?

You concentrate on one little detail - who arranged the investments in the new company - and ignore everything else. Not one single investor gave money to old US except Air Wisconsin. You go on and on about one brush-stroke in a corner of the picture and thus never realize what it's a picture of. Even in the article (from the PIT paper - wonder whose side of the story they got) it was Lakefield that went to Parker practically begging for US to be bought...

Jim

I don't think anyone has said that USAir bought AWA, just that AWA did not buy USAir.....the money came from outsiders. Try to keep up, or maybe, quit trying to spin it for your warped fantasy.

Also, Lakefield begging Parker....show the proof on that one. GAWD!

Your whole post just indicates spin, and spin only.

breeze

 

[PullUp]

Complain about ALPA all you want. But it was ALPA the negotiated your industry +1%. You know the contract that you all think was so great. IT was ALPA that negotiated your scope clause you all think is so great.

Also it was your local ALPA guys that negotiated the contract. AND it was you guys that voted for the contract. What have you guys all said? Nobody can make you vote for a contract. If it was so bad why did it pass?


If you want to blame someone for the "bad" contracts you have look in the mirror.

You know, you do the best you can with the information you have in front of you at the time. And at the time, ALPO local and national were spinning these things as the best deal. Let me tell you a story about attending a meeting where one of the concessionary contracts was being described to the membership by the lawyer (I think it was Dan Katz) who was part of the negotiations.
He presented the gruesome details and then recommended a vote for it while Bill Pollack and his team at the table sat nodding their heads.
Of course we all voted for it. It was a hell of a sales job, with the implied threat that our jobs depended on it passing.
Two weeks later I learned that the same lawyer was being paid his fee by the company. I also learned that his fee was dependent on whether the contract passed or not. If it didn't, then he'd get his standard hourly rate for his time. If it passed, he was to be paid $1 million dollars.
No wonder he 'sold' us on it.
All done under the auspices of ALPA, local and national.
Oh, and the Delta +1 contract was proffered by Wolf, and accepted by ALPA. That one was a no-brainer, even for ALPO. But they had nothing to do with even suggesting it.
ALPA sucks. Long live USAPA, warts and all.
Cheers.

 

[mrbreeze]

Let me ask this, 700. All those outside investors except Air Wisconsin who provided DIP financing in exchange for a fee for departure contract, agreed to buy equity in the combined company, NOT the old US. IOW, the money wasn't available until after the merger. So where did the old US get the money to buy HP?

In addition, there were the owners of old US and HP. Who paid the owners of the old US? How much? Who paid the owners of HP? How much?

You concentrate on one little detail - who arranged the investments in the new company - and ignore everything else. Not one single investor gave money to old US except Air Wisconsin. You go on and on about one brush-stroke in a corner of the picture and thus never realize what it's a picture of. Even in the article (from the PIT paper - wonder whose side of the story they got) it was Lakefield that went to Parker practically begging for US to be bought...

Jim

Question, Jim....

What was your retirement date, just curious.

breeze

 

[767one]

You know, you do the best you can with the information you have in front of you at the time. And at the time, ALPO local and national were spinning these things as the best deal. Let me tell you a story about attending a meeting where one of the concessionary contracts was being described to the membership by the lawyer (I think it was Dan Katz) who was part of the negotiations.
He presented the gruesome details and then recommended a vote for it while Bill Pollack and his team at the table sat nodding their heads.
Of course we all voted for it. It was a hell of a sales job, with the implied threat that our jobs depended on it passing.
Two weeks later I learned that the same lawyer was being paid his fee by the company. I also learned that his fee was dependent on whether the contract passed or not. If it didn't, then he'd get his standard hourly rate for his time. If it passed, he was to be paid $1 million dollars.
No wonder he 'sold' us on it.
All done under the auspices of ALPA, local and national.
Oh, and the Delta +1 contract was proffered by Wolf, and accepted by ALPA. That one was a no-brainer, even for ALPO. But they had nothing to do with even suggesting it.
ALPA sucks. Long live USAPA, warts and all.
Cheers.

Excellent synopsis! Wolf never though that Delta and United would get large raises. He thought that parity plus 1 would actually be concessionary.

 

[767one]

Complain about ALPA all you want. But it was ALPA the negotiated your industry +1%. You know the contract that you all think was so great. IT was ALPA that negotiated your scope clause you all think is so great.

Also it was your local ALPA guys that negotiated the contract. AND it was you guys that voted for the contract. What have you guys all said? Nobody can make you vote for a contract. If it was so bad why did it pass?


If you want to blame someone for the "bad" contracts you have look in the mirror.

Actually not industry plus 1% but parity plus 1% and we were to get that just before everybody else got their raises. Alpa pushed the parity plus 1 very heavily. Wolf never envisioned parity plus one as a raise, he thought it would be concessionary. He never thought that Delta and United would get such large raises. We did get the raises for 1 month maybe 2 at most. Alpa also negotiated the "best defined contribution plan" in the industry after giving up our pension and that lasted.....about 1 year. yes we voted for it but who did all the cheerleading?

 

[767one]

I didn't say Kirby was industry standard and I don't think anyone else did either. My point was that absent a unified pilot group the Kirby is the best you will see unless the Company offers more to close this mess of a process out. If a better offer comes, it will be solely at the discretion of Management and not because of anything USAPA might do.

I would add or Alpa would do. The only difference is that alpa would cheerlead for the company offer.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I would add or Alpa would do. The only difference is that alpa would cheerlead for the company offer.

In other words ALPA would tell the truth about what is realistic and possible whereas USAPA would lie and tell people what they want to hear rather than being honest. USAPA is a two in the bush is better than one in the hand kind of operation.

 

[767one]

In other words ALPA would tell the truth about what is realistic and possible whereas USAPA would lie and tell people what they want to hear rather than being honest. USAPA is a two in the bush is better than one in the hand kind of operation.

Your opinion on the issue and you are entitled to it.

 

[mrbreeze]

In other words ALPA would tell the truth about what is realistic and possible whereas USAPA would lie and tell people what they want to hear rather than being honest. USAPA is a two in the bush is better than one in the hand kind of operation.

It amazes me that many of you guys out West seem to know more about what went down between the East pilots and ALPA......as if you were there.

YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE A CLUE! You just want to spin it all and make it fit your fantasy.

breeze