US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

Pass. I'll keep what I've got now.

That's fine if you want to vote that way, but you can't keep what you have by denying a vote to the membership.

 

[cleardirect]

aww cry me a river... give me a break.. we all had a part in this...It wasn't one side or the other..
we are all responsible...

NO we are not. this is completely and totally the east pilots fault.

The west followed the rules and we are just trying to enforce the rules the east pilots agreed to.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh, sorry, I screwed it up. After all..... you were part of it, and I wasn't.

Gimme a break! You don't have a clue, do you? YOU WERE NOT THERE, DH!!!! Another part of your fantasy to leap frog in seniority, regardless of the facts.

You are certainly not helping your election outcome with this weak argument.

breeze

Talk about fantasy. At the time of the merger how much SENIORITY did a guy with 15-16-17 years have? That would be negative SENIORITY. US Airways had more pilots than they needed. Without the merger that would pre merger career expectations for those of you playing along at home. Would have been recalled to the bottom of the seniority list. (It is called a SENIORITY list not a DOH list) Why is that is DOH is the gold standard?

Nicolau placed those pilots in the position that they would have been recalled at the bottom. So the only people that are trying to leapfrog SENIORITY are east pilots using DOH.

Those are the facts.

 

[Move2CLT]

With this MDA thing a sure winner (according to breeze), I'm wondering why USAPA hasn't thrown its support behind those easties involved in the case.

Where is the backing? You'd think that if this would kill off the Nic that every single eastie would be beating his MDA drum.

But they haven't. Not even getting too much support on this board.

I'm thinking breeze is too ensconced in his MDA fantasy that he's let go of reality completely.

Poor pathetic breeze.

 

[CallawayGolf]

NO we are not. this is completely and totally the east pilots fault.

The west followed the rules and we are just trying to enforce the rules the east pilots agreed to.

There seems to be a pattern here. The Company has had to take extraordinary measures to get USAPA to follow the rules, contractual agreements and the law as well. USAPA violates the status quo provision and its off to federal court resulting an an injunction. USAPA refuses to accept the results of binding arbitration and close out S22 of the joint contract, then its off to federal mediation followed by a trip to federal court in a declaratory judgement lawsuit. The east definitely has a case of the "rules don't apply to us" disease. One injunction is on the books and another one is almost certainly headed USAPA's way in 2012. Some people just have a tough time learning their lessons in life.

 

[fatherabraham]

I'm thinking breeze is too ensconced in his MDA fantasy that he's let go of reality completely.

Boo Boo,

Not a word i see or hear often. Is that a word more commonly used in legal talk?

ensconced adjective deep-rooted, deeply ennrained, deeply implanted, deeply manifest, engrained, impeded, imprinted, manifest
Associated concepts: precedence deep-rooted in the law, common law

FA

 

[Zone5]

There seems to be a pattern here. The Company has had to take extraordinary measures to get USAPA to follow the rules, contractual agreements and the law as well. USAPA violates the status quo provision and its off to federal court resulting an an injunction. USAPA refuses to accept the results of binding arbitration and close out S22 of the joint contract, then its off to federal mediation followed by a trip to federal court in a declaratory judgement lawsuit. The east definitely has a case of the "rules don't apply to us" disease. One injunction is on the books and another one is almost certainly headed USAPA's way in 2012. Some people just have a tough time learning their lessons in life.

Another injunction "almost certainly headed USAPA's way in 2012"? News to me. Please fill me in on this one.


seajay

 

[nevergiveup]

There seems to be a pattern here. The Company has had to take extraordinary measures to get USAPA to follow the rules, contractual agreements and the law as well. USAPA violates the status quo provision and its off to federal court resulting an an injunction. USAPA refuses to accept the results of binding arbitration and close out S22 of the joint contract, then its off to federal mediation followed by a trip to federal court in a declaratory judgement lawsuit. The east definitely has a case of the "rules don't apply to us" disease. One injunction is on the books and another one is almost certainly headed USAPA's way in 2012. Some people just have a tough time learning their lessons in life.

When did USAPA refuse to accept the arbitration, has a CBA been signed? We are all still at square one. The west sent this whole thing to the courts by prematurely suing USAPA. You should have gotten a contract, then sued had USAPA enforced DOH. A lot of money was wasted. I'm sure the lawyers are quite happy. Lesson learned?

 

[Beancounter]

When did USAPA refuse to accept the arbitration, has a CBA been signed? We are all still at square one. The west sent this whole thing to the courts by prematurely suing USAPA. You should have gotten a contract, then sued had USAPA enforced DOH. A lot of money was wasted. I'm sure the lawyers are quite happy. Lesson learned?

Ohhh, I see. When you we're trying to mug us we should have handed it over and waited until you were safely at home until we called the police. Maybe if you had had a gun, but you were just standing holding a stapler in one hand and a rubber chicken in the other. You're right, when you first walked up with a glazed look in your eyes, yelling "give me your seniority," we shouldn't have called the authorities at that point.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Another injunction "almost certainly headed USAPA's way in 2012"? News to me. Please fill me in on this one.


seajay

Just keep an eye on the DJ proceedings in judge Silver's courtroom. Wake issued one. Conrad issued one. Silver; well there is a pattern here isn't there?

 

[CallawayGolf]

When did USAPA refuse to accept the arbitration, has a CBA been signed? We are all still at square one. The west sent this whole thing to the courts by prematurely suing USAPA. You should have gotten a contract, then sued had USAPA enforced DOH. A lot of money was wasted. I'm sure the lawyers are quite happy. Lesson learned?

What have the company negotiators told USAPA from the very beginning regarding S22 of the contract? There was never going to be a DOH style TA/JCBA released without a court declaring the NIC to be a non-liability issue for the Company (which would be roughly the same odds of a court giving someone legal immunity to rob a bank in advance of the crime).

The west tried to help you see this by filing Addington and the Company has tried to help you see this by filing the DJ. The Ninth may have ruled the DFR not ripe, but that didn't imply anything about what USAPA and the Company can and cannot legally agree to regarding S22. Of course Addington took any claim that USAPA's actions against the west were beyond the statute of limitations protection.

USAPA told you they could negotiate seniority like a crew meal, but they can't. USAPA told you the Company would trade a DOH seniority scheme for a cost-neutral contract, but they couldn't. USAPA told you Lee $eham was the legal expert on the RLA who could deliver the east's preferred seniority system, but he failed. USAPA told you that you could use safety as a negotiating weapon against Management, but that led to a permanent injunction. USAPA is telling you that they don't have to abide by the terms of the TA because they are a successor union to that agreement, but judge Silver will very likely rule that any collective bargaining agreement, including the TA, is subject to the RLA and that violating the terms of the same will result in making the west claim against USAPA and Management unquestionably ripe and certain to result in a DFR. In order to prevent this, I suspect she will re-issue the same injunction Wake issued to compel the parties to use the NIC and get back to good faith negotiations.

 

[nevergiveup]

What have the company negotiators told USAPA from the very beginning regarding S22 of the contract? There was never going to be a DOH style TA/JCBA released without a court declaring the NIC to be a non-liability issue for the Company (which would be roughly the same odds of a court giving someone legal immunity to rob a bank in advance of the crime).

The west tried to help you see this by filing Addington and the Company has tried to help you see this by filing the DJ. The Ninth may have ruled the DFR not ripe, but that didn't imply anything about what USAPA and the Company can and cannot legally agree to regarding S22. Of course Addington took any claim that USAPA's actions against the west were beyond the statute of limitations protection.

USAPA told you they could negotiate seniority like a crew meal, but they can't. USAPA told you the Company would trade a DOH seniority scheme for a cost-neutral contract, but they couldn't. USAPA told you Lee $eham was the legal expert on the RLA who could deliver the east's preferred seniority system, but he failed. USAPA told you that you could use safety as a negotiating weapon against Management, but that led to a permanent injunction. USAPA is telling you that they don't have to abide by the terms of the TA because they are a successor union to that agreement, but judge Silver will very likely rule that any collective bargaining agreement, including the TA, is subject to the RLA and that violating the terms of the same will result in making the west claim against USAPA and Management unquestionably ripe and certain to result in a DFR. In order to prevent this, I suspect she will re-issue the same injunction Wake issued to compel the parties to use the NIC and get back to good faith negotiations.

Perhaps, but hasn't anyone learned not to count their chickens before they are hatched?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Perhaps, but hasn't anyone learned not to count their chickens before they are hatched?

Well there are several ways to interpret that maxim. Should you spend money you haven't earned yet? Not a good idea according to this maxim though Americans generally and our government sure spend a lot of money that hasn't been earned or received yet.

On the other hand, there is indeed wisdom in properly evaluating your circumstances and odds before making a bad choice that could have been prevented. If a chicken farmer tracks data on his unhatched eggs and has the historical statistics to know that 97% of all his eggs will hatch, then he can look at a hundred unhatched eggs and determine that three of those eggs will be a loss. Does he know this for certain? Of course not, but over time he knows that 97/100 will be his yield.

You know the other saying that also applies, right? "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it". So, has USAPA leaned anything from it's past failures or are they doomed to repeat them?

 

[nevergiveup]

Well there are several ways to interpret that maxim. Should you spend money you haven't earned yet? Not a good idea according to this maxim though Americans generally and our government sure spend a lot of money that hasn't been earned or received yet.

On the other hand, there is indeed wisdom in properly evaluating your circumstances and odds before making a bad choice that could have been prevented. If a chicken farmer tracks data on his unhatched eggs and has the historical statistics to know that 97% of all his eggs will hatch, then he can look at a hundred unhatched eggs and determine that three of those eggs will be a loss. Does he know this for certain? Of course not, but over time he knows that 97/100 will be his yield.

You know the other saying that also applies, right? "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it". So, has USAPA leaned anything from it's past failures or are they doomed to repeat them?

You win.

 

[Move2CLT]

Boo Boo,

Not a word i see or hear often. Is that a word more commonly used in legal talk?

ensconced adjective deep-rooted, deeply ennrained, deeply implanted, deeply manifest, engrained, impeded, imprinted, manifest
Associated concepts: precedence deep-rooted in the law, common law

FA

It's a pretty common word boo boo. I think I first used it in high school.

Open a dictionary sometime and ensconce yourself with its contents.

If you need me to dumb things down for you, let me know.