US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Nope - you fell off the turnip truck about 5.5 years ago when you bought the Seham/Bradford theory. Been swallowing it ever since.



And that is the irony underlying it all. You'll use whoever is available to achieve what YOU want. The MDA pilots? Forgotten before the MDA suit and they'll be forgotten again after the MDA suit. New hires? Those guys please, please, please vote against a Nic inclusive contract so PullUp can get what he wants and leave them with the mess to clean up. Don't worry about what it's gonna cost to get PullUp what he wants, no price is too great for you to pay to get PullUp what HE wants. Don't worry - he'll respect you in the morning then put the check in the mail...

Jim

Excellent post Jim.

Excellent.

 

[nic4us]

Here's a thought.

When does the so called "East" cave in and accept the Nicolau award?

Having read this forum on a near daily basis it occurred to me that for seven years now through legal maneuvering The East pilots have maintained their seniority basically with no chance of an increase in pay.

Based upon my understanding the Nic Award will be accepted some day either voluntarily or not. The East has been "pushing" this around for 7 yrs now with likely another 2-3 years before the courts force the issue. This would be a nearly 10 year saga which would mean a great many would have retired and be off the seniority list as a result. If my assessment is correct then USAPA will have won in a way because they got their senior people to retirement without much financial upheaval.

Your assessment is incorrect.

Their senior people are senior on the Nic. All usapa did was got them to retirement much poorer.

Lets take a 55 year old east pilot who was number 1000 on the east list at the date of the merger. S/he really was not that senior. 1000 out of 2800 active pilots, making LOA93 wages and as ZONE5 pointed out in real fear of losing employment after a couple decades of service with 5 years to retirement.

Now the Nic comes out and this pilot is about 1150 out of 4600 active pilots, a substantial relative increase at a company that has the money to operate for the remainder of their career. (Now they actually are senior). Further, of those 150 West pilots that ended up in front of them over 100 would be retired in the same 5 years this pilot has left.

All usapa did was screw this pilot out of a substatial wage increase for those 5 remaining years. Now as it turns out, the age 60 retirement rule changed, and this pilot got another 5 years of the industry's lowest wage to work with minimal vacations and crap work rules. I estimate usapa has cost this pilot around half a million dollars and at least 7 to 10 years of lifespan. i.e. s/he will retire permanently by age 70, rather than seeing the grandkids getting married.

To sum....usapa has not "won" anything. They have cost 2/3rds of the combined group unrecoverable damages and irreparable harm, all in an attempt to steal something which is not theirs.

 

[KTM300]

The other Bobsey twin joins in with another "No price is to great for everyone to pay as long as I get what I want" argument.

YOU may not have a problem, but a lot of those who could be making more, not having to commute cross country, whatever, may find the price of getting YOU what YOU want is too high...

Jim

It seemed to work just fine for you, now didn't it, which you are still in denial about, apparently.

The price however, has nothing to do with 'what I want', unlike you. The price as I see it is the Pilot profession. ALPA has turned this profession into nothing but a trade. And that didn't start 5.5 years ago. It is a disgrace. The blame lays squarely at ALPA's doorstep.

To address your other issues, 'making more,commute cross country, whatever', let me say this; I am in favor of making more. I feel we do deserve more, but past practices by those who ran ALPA helped drive professional pilot wages down, not me! I remember a contract that the 767 drivers got approximately a 30% pay increase and the F-28 guys a 10% increase. Were you part of that, if so, then you belong to the, "No price is too great for everyone to pay as long as I get what I want" group.

Commuting is something I am very familiar with. Why, are you still commuting? It is a choice many make. I did. Didn't enjoy it. Won't do it again. If you want to live in California and commute, that is not my problem and I don't want to hear about it!

For some, You, the idea of gettiing more money will magically appear if we all just say okay, here, you can have my seat, my years of service, whatever! Jim, unless you are writing the check, Prove it!!!!

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Finally, I found the following (Commissioned Officer Creed):

Sorry, each military unit may or may not have their own creed/saying/whatever. It means nothing. Most wannabe military don't know that, yet, they are the one's who inevitably quote this or that as if it were something to worship. Talking about something you know nothing about makes you seem somewhat desperate.

Perhaps you should just enlist? Then you can find out about hard work, you can practice humility and find out the values involved in experience.

It is pretty ironic that you quote, in reality, a non-commissioned saying and don't even realize that, in the military, if you wanted a job accomplished, you went with the most senior dude, the one with more stripes than a California freeway. That is, seniority, as in "has more years than anyone else". Sort of like, seniority by DOH.

Just sayin'

 

[nevergiveup]

Your assessment is incorrect.

Their senior people are senior on the Nic. All usapa did was got them to retirement much poorer.

Lets take a 55 year old east pilot who was number 1000 on the east list at the date of the merger. S/he really was not that senior. 1000 out of 2800 active pilots, making LOA93 wages and as ZONE5 pointed out in real fear of losing employment after a couple decades of service with 5 years to retirement.

Now the Nic comes out and this pilot is about 1150 out of 4600 active pilots, a substantial relative increase at a company that has the money to operate for the remainder of their career. (Now they actually are senior). Further, of those 150 West pilots that ended up in front of them over 100 would be retired in the same 5 years this pilot has left.

All usapa did was screw this pilot out of a substatial wage increase for those 5 remaining years. Now as it turns out, the age 60 retirement rule changed, and this pilot got another 5 years of the industry's lowest wage to work with minimal vacations and crap work rules. I estimate usapa has cost this pilot around half a million dollars and at least 7 to 10 years of lifespan. i.e. s/he will retire permanently by age 70, rather than seeing the grandkids getting married.

To sum....usapa has not "won" anything. They have cost 2/3rds of the combined group unrecoverable damages and irreparable harm, all in an attempt to steal something which is not theirs.

Shutting down this company might be best for all. AAA has too much debt. Not sure why you boys wanted to tag along in the first place.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is pretty ironic that you quote, in reality, a non-commissioned saying and don't even realize that, in the military, if you wanted a job accomplished, you went with the most senior dude, the one with more stripes than a California freeway. That is, seniority, as in "has more years than anyone else". Sort of like, seniority by DOH.

And that one with "more stripes than a California freeway" saluted the green 2nd Lt every time...

Perhaps some should go back on active - seems they need more practice in humility...

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

Not sure why you boys wanted to tag along in the first place.

Because they like riding our coat tails, we saved them from "Project Zanzibar" That will come out more in "discovery". 😀

 

[luvthe9]

Gentlemen,



Due to recent events, specifically the ranting’s distributed by the PHL “Compass Correction” regarding false allegations of an alleged “ whisper campaign”, I feel that is necessary to denounce these unfortunate attempts at character assassination with a full disclosure of the facts that precipitated this behavior. In the interest of transparency, I am forwarding to you all a copy of my election protest that was filed in response to the National Officer election that concluded on February 23rd. This protest was properly delivered within the guidelines of the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws and is self-explanatory and should dispel any and all rumors regarding my integrity and openness to the current election process.



For the record, as far as I am concerned, this protest is not confidential and look forward to the full disclosure and discovery of these documents.



Respectfully,



Capt. Bill McKee

 

[SparrowHawk]

Your assessment is incorrect.

Their senior people are senior on the Nic. All usapa did was got them to retirement much poorer.

Lets take a 55 year old east pilot who was number 1000 on the east list at the date of the merger. S/he really was not that senior. 1000 out of 2800 active pilots, making LOA93 wages and as ZONE5 pointed out in real fear of losing employment after a couple decades of service with 5 years to retirement.

Now the Nic comes out and this pilot is about 1150 out of 4600 active pilots, a substantial relative increase at a company that has the money to operate for the remainder of their career. (Now they actually are senior). Further, of those 150 West pilots that ended up in front of them over 100 would be retired in the same 5 years this pilot has left.

All usapa did was screw this pilot out of a substatial wage increase for those 5 remaining years. Now as it turns out, the age 60 retirement rule changed, and this pilot got another 5 years of the industry's lowest wage to work with minimal vacations and crap work rules. I estimate usapa has cost this pilot around half a million dollars and at least 7 to 10 years of lifespan. i.e. s/he will retire permanently by age 70, rather than seeing the grandkids getting married.

To sum....usapa has not "won" anything. They have cost 2/3rds of the combined group unrecoverable damages and irreparable harm, all in an attempt to steal something which is not theirs.

Interesting! Thanks for the answer. Your POV and perspective is certainly logical and valid. It also (to me at least) points out the dangers of Arbitration. In general I personally don't like things like "Relative Seniority". I much prefer a straight DOH list due to the fact there can be no "Monkey Business" It's real simple you got hired on March 12, 1980 and I get hired on March 13, 1980 you're senior, End of story. Case closed!

However in this instance I think even the most die hard "Eastie" would agree that straight DOH isn't fair or equitable to those on the West. I've read on here of what you folks called "Fences" which I take is like a crew base seniority list based upon DOH. To me that seems inherently fair as both groups seem to have their concerns addressed and could unite and gain a contract, or at least move towards one.

As an observer with "No skin in the game" hopefully allows a perspective that provokes thought and gets people moving toward a compromise. Here's my concern. IF and it's a big if a merger were to occur with AA my fear is that their pilot group would just bludgeon the fractured group that is USAPA/AOL and you'd end up worse then where you were at the US/HP merger.

Any worker at US Airways is just so much Sh*t under Doug's feet but only your group has the Clout & the Cajones to do something for yourselves. But you have to UNITE to do so. Leave the bluster and testosterone poisoning to other work groups and in the words of Larry the Cable Guy "Git-R-Done"

 

[PullUp]

Wait till the bump and flush forced on the company via the next step. Damages.

Mindless blather. Mind puke.
Read the TA: No bump/ No flush.
Sheesh.

 

[Beancounter]

Because they like riding our coat tails, we saved them from "Project Zanzibar" That will come out more in "discovery". 😀

You've got to be joking. Even if we'd had to go into bankruptcy, you'd have gone into liquidation. Discovery? NO JUDGE IS GOING TO RULE ON THE FAIRNESS OF THE ARBITRATION! Unless there was some form of illegal action, like bribery for example, it holds. It's no wonder you guys get laughed out of courtrooms by judges. GET A CLUE! Or at least borrow one.

 

[Beancounter]

Mindless blather. Mind puke.
Read the TA: No bump/ No flush.
Sheesh.

HAHAHAHHAH! You guys are funnier than watching an English comedy! Ohhhh, I see the TA is a worthless document when used in reference to protect the west, but if it provides a protection for the east, whoaaa, look out it's golden!

 

[cactusboy53]

Sorry, each military unit may or may not have their own creed/saying/whatever. It means nothing. Most wannabe military don't know that, yet, they are the one's who inevitably quote this or that as if it were something to worship. Talking about something you know nothing about makes you seem somewhat desperate.

Perhaps you should just enlist? Then you can find out about hard work, you can practice humility and find out the values involved in experience.

It is pretty ironic that you quote, in reality, a non-commissioned saying and don't even realize that, in the military, if you wanted a job accomplished, you went with the most senior dude, the one with more stripes than a California freeway. That is, seniority, as in "has more years than anyone else". Sort of like, seniority by DOH.

Just sayin'

Ohh.....bitter, and morally bankrupt. Double threat. 😀

 

[PullUp]

HAHAHAHHAH! You guys are funnier than watching an English comedy! Ohhhh, I see the TA is a worthless document when used in reference to protect the west, but if it provides a protection for the east, whoaaa, look out it's golden!

Exactly correct. Thanks.

 

[Beancounter]

Exactly correct. Thanks.