US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

It has nothing to do with US Airways.

Another place I worked ( also not as a pilot ) the guy with 20 years had a better office than I did with only 1 yet we were the exact corporate grade.

Funny huh?

Sure it's a riot. You mean they didn't kick the guy who had a job out of the place he was already in when you got hired? I can't image why he got to retain the office (let's call it his seat) and give the seat to you when you joined in. Hmm, letting a guy keep the seat he was in rather than giving it to a guy who wasn't getting a paycheck the day before? Where have I heard that logic before - ah, I remember now it was the Nicolau arbitration award. Yes, guys keeping the seats they brought rather than giving them to the furloughed guys not on the payroll at the time of the merger. Corporate America does reflect the same values as the NIC. I guess it's settled then (in more ways than one).

 

[Missfit]

Um, perhaps you missed the facts, or your "husband" never explained it to you, but the damage you refer to over the years was done by USAirways and your "husband's" fellow pilots. US ALPA was made up exclusively of your very own pilots. ALPA national didn't hold a gun to their head. ALPA national didn't assign your union's positions. They were voted in by your very own pilots. All ALPA national did was provide the resources and support to govern yourselves. The mess you created was your own. Just because they gave you the rope doesn't make them responsible for making a noose and putting over your head.

News Flash... It's the same clowns running your new union. Who are you going to blame this time?

Wow, do you ever have a lot to say. I'm glad this board gives you a way to vent your frustration towards the East pilots...obviously you must have suffered at the hands of one somehow to have such strong feelings against them.
I have a reason behind my support I'm just trying to understand why you have such a deep rooted, dare I say, hatred towards them.

I seem to remember ALPA National thwarting recalls of reps among other things...and there were a few situations where ALPA did take it out of the pilots hands...
ALPA= Cigar smoking, scotch drinking, backroom deals.

 

[No Land Green]

Apparently you can't ague with the facts.

Hey, if you feel you are not getting the support you need from national, it's your prerogative to walk. This is America. Seeeeee ya! But you can't escape accountability by blaming everyone else. You are the only ones to blame for the mess you created. You make your bed. You sleep in it. Period.

The Nic Arbitration was the final straw that "broke the camel's back" in a long list of ALPA National endorsed crappy agreements. That's right ALPA National endorsed, that's who's signature goes at the bottom of all those agreements. The ultimate blame lies there. If ALPA National has no accountability in any of this, as professed by many, well then I want a CB Agent that is going to be accountable for it's actions and endorsements. ALPA's track record hasn't been one of accountability, but pass the blame. Substandard National Union Foundation led to a crumbling house.........

If the majority of LCC Pilots think that USAPA isn't in their best interests, then I guess we will see another CB Agent come on the property.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Keeping the seats you brought is exactly correct - PHX.

Art asked how this would go non-union and that is length of service.

Just as someone with 1 year on the job doesn't get the prime office- someone who never turned a wheel thinks they are going to be senior to an East F/O who built the international from the ground up is going to be disappointed.

 

[Metroyet]

And what union do the East pilots have to thank for that? I honestly believe that ALPA has inflicted more damage over the years than USAPA could ever dream of...dredging up these past contract concessions just reminds the east that they are lucky to have gotten rid of the bloated, self serving excuse for a union called ALPA.

No offense, but the next time you look at your husband, Please understand the fact that he WAS the

"bloated, self serving excuse for a union called ALPA" as you put it.

ALPA was at least 100% democratic and autonomous. USAPA, (again your husband) is nothing but a tool used by a dictatorial regiem to steal what they other wise couldn't get via normal legal processes that have been universally respected for centuries in this Country. USAPA is nothing more than an impotent banana republic...just like the tough talking North Koreans, (that starve every winter) or the Junta running Myanmar, (that die by the 10s of thousands of Cholera after every typhoon because they can't supply clean water to the masses)

USAPA is just a facade of an organization. One doesn't have to scratch to far under the surface to figure out that the only ones benefiting from the organization are the parasites running it all the while the Masses they supposedly represent keep paying dearly with no relief in sight, (LOA93) That's you Husbands new "union".

USAPA is never going to be allowed to steal all of the Jobs the West brought to this merger. That's exactly what is going to happen if another 9-11 style furlough hits under a DOH scenario. Common Sense should dictate that the nearly 2000 pilots your side had on furlough, should NOT be entitled to replace actively employed pilots... at a totally unrelated carrier on the other side of the country...simply because they have more votes. Do you really believe that's going to work? The Addington verdict should give you some indication of successful you Husband is going to be at his attempted mass theft..."He" is USAPA after all just like "He" was ALPA.

BTW, DAL?NWA is ALPA, so is Alaska and little ole' Spirit. They have Industry leading contracts...not just "standard" which is all USAPA is hoping to deliver.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Keeping the seats you brought is exactly correct - PHX.

Art asked how this would go non-union and that is length of service.

Just as someone with 1 year on the job doesn't get the prime office- someone who never turned a wheel thinks they are going to be senior to an East F/O who built the international from the ground up is going to be disappointed.

Within each equipment class there are only three kinds of seats: left, right and no seat. Keeping the seat you broght to the merger is either left, right or none at all. After that, a seniority position allows for seat protection and potential advancement based on the merged list, you remember the one that was issued as a result of binding arbitration and subsequently accepted by Management with consideration paid for the same.

One thing is a near certainty - one group is going to be disappointed when the last chip falls. I will agree with you on that.

 

[LSS]

It amazes me that you guys can NEVER accept responsibility for your own actions. Everything is always some else's fault.

Pay - US pilots / bankruptcy court
Retirement - US pilots / bankruptcy court
LOA93 - US pilots

ALPA gives you the support and structure to govern yourselves, and even gives you the ability to effect change on a national level through elections and representation, yet you want to blame everyone else for the result of your action/inaction/complacency.

And you wonder why you are the laughing stock.

Different circus - same clowns.

Total unadulterated BS. I was there during the recalls... don't give me this crap...

 

[767jetz]

Wow, do you ever have a lot to say.

As does everyone else on this board, Especially now that the inmates have been released. Just trying to keep up the new pace they are setting. Someone has to counter the propaganda machine. It is our right as Americans, you know.

obviously you must have suffered at the hands of one somehow to have such strong feelings against them.

Yes, yes. Obviously. You must be right.

Or it could just be that I find it deplorable what the east is trying to perpetrate on the west. Let me ask you this... If you saw a person beating their child, would you walk by quietly since it doesn't affect you, or would you speak up and maybe even call the police? Some things are simply so wrong, a person is compelled to speak up, without having any other reason.

I have a reason behind my support

As do I. I have explained it enough times, even recently. So if you are really trying to understand, search my posts and you'll have your answer. I personally don't really care what your reasons are. It's a free country. What's really ironically telling is why you feel the need to have an understanding of mine. Does your sense of self require an absence of dissenting opinions? Or is it that you just want to redirect the conversation away from the glaring errors of omission that I illuminate, by questioning my motivation? I guess in my analogy, being married to the child beater would give the person the right to tell a passer by to mind their own business. Got it.

I seem to remember ALPA National thwarting recalls of reps among other things...and there were a few situations where ALPA did take it out of the pilots hands...
ALPA= Cigar smoking, scotch drinking, backroom deals.

Whatever ALPA National did or didn't do, it was after the fact of US ALPA screwing things up so badly that they were in violation of ALPA national rules. And it doesn't change the fact that US ALPA (once again, your very own US Airways pilots) created the situation in the first place by not allowing the negotiating committee to do their job without the heavy hand of the East MEC controlling their actions under threat of recall, even in the face of an arbitrators warning to come off their unreasonable position.

But once again, no surprises here that you blame everyone but the players who actually are responsible.

 

[No Land Green]

USAPA is never going to be allowed to steal all of the Jobs the West brought to this merger.

I haven't met a USAPA person yet who wants to "steal all of the Jobs the West brought to this merger". The East wants the jobs they brought to the table, pretty simple concept. From watching this debate, it appears as if the West wants all the East Jobs that open up ahead of those who have been here a lot longer have a chance to fill them. Please don't tell "it's a new Company", if so, we would all be on 5th year pay now.

In fact, isn't 20% of the current flying being done by the West, East flying? Does this imply that the West needed to shrink even more than it did after the LAS Base closure?

 

[767jetz]

The Nic Arbitration was the final straw that "broke the camel's back" in a long list of ALPA National endorsed crappy agreements. That's right ALPA National endorsed, that's who's signature goes at the bottom of all those agreements. The ultimate blame lies there.

You're kidding, right? So if I endorse a person I am responsible for their inappropriate conduct? THAT'S where the blame ultimately lies? How about the fools who would not negotiate? How about the negotiating committee and MEC who would not budge from their opening demands, and even try to get the things they now claim (after the fact) are SOOOO important. Like attrition. Like Fences. Like C&R's. Like LOS adjustments.

How convenient. You're at a high stakes poker game. You go all in, poker face on, with a weak hand. Your bluff is called, and you blame the dealer and the casino for stealing your money. Obviously you should have been the winner since your opponent was in high school when you were playing cards in the good ole days.

Sorry, to burst your bubble. the blame is in your lap. Everyone knows it. No one is fooled by your words on this forum. Cry me a river.

If ALPA National has no accountability in any of this, as professed by many, well then I want a CB Agent that is going to be accountable for it's actions and endorsements.

Hmmm. So USAPA is accountable? Since when? Didn't you endorse the RICO case? Are you going to endorse more money out the window on the next wild goose chase, when USAPA themselves sent unsolicited propaganda to the west? Accountability my @#$$.

If the majority of LCC Pilots think that USAPA isn't in their best interests, then I guess we will see another CB Agent come on the property.

That will be happening sooner than many of you think.

 

[No Land Green]

Some things are simply so wrong, a person is compelled to speak up, without having any other reason.

Exactly why ALPA got voted off the property.

 

[BoeingBoy]

From watching this debate, it appears as if the West wants all the East Jobs that open up ahead of those who have been here a lot longer have a chance to fill them.

Time for new glasses then...

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

You're kidding, right? So if I endorse a person I am responsible for their inappropriate conduct? THAT'S where the blame ultimately lies? How about the fools who would not negotiate? How about the negotiating committee and MEC who would not budge from their opening demands, and even try to get the things they now claim (after the fact) are SOOOO important. Like attrition. Like Fences. Like C&R's. Like LOS adjustments.

How convenient. You're at a high stakes poker game. You go all in, poker face on, with a weak hand. Your bluff is called, and you blame the dealer and the casino for stealing your money. Obviously you should have been the winner since your opponent was in high school when you were playing cards in the good ole days.

Sorry, to burst your bubble. the blame is in your lap. Everyone knows it. No one is fooled by your words on this forum. Cry me a river.



Hmmm. So USAPA is accountable? Since when? Didn't you endorse the RICO case? Are you going to endorse more money out the window on the next wild goose chase, when USAPA themselves sent unsolicited propaganda to the west? Accountability my @#$$.



That will be happening sooner than many of you think.

Do you even work at LCC? As spun up as you are, you must.

Ummm, Yeah, I DO hold ALPA National accountable. I did last election and will again in the next. Ummm, Yeah I DO also hold USAPA accountable. I did in the last election and will again in the next........

 

[Metroyet]

I haven't met a USAPA person yet who wants to "steal all of the Jobs the West brought to this merger". The East wants the jobs they brought to the table, pretty simple concept.

You East guys love to ignore what's staring you in the face. The funny thing is you all actually seem to believe nobody else notices your B.S.. When they do, you all fly off the handle like true Narcissists.

I'll spell it out for you....slowly.

1879 of your brethren brought exactly NOTHING to the table except pink slips. Irrefutable fact.

Next in the event of another 9-11 style furlough ALL of those 1879 pilots who brought NOTHING to the table will REPLACE active America West pilots.

Here is what the Conditions and Restrictions will do, (C/R authored solely by the East for the East) in that scenario.

75% of the Former America West pilots ALL of whom brought jobs to this Merger would then be unemployed....again, having their jobs replaced with those EAST pilots that brought NOTHING to the merger.

93% of AMW captains would lose their seat to the former EAST pilots....many of whom brought NOTHING to this merger but under DOH would sweep into Phoenix....line holding captains.

Again, Irrefutable fact.

It is exactly these angry FOs...the ones who will have their careers saved by the Seats in PHX if a mass furlough happens again, that are driving this out-of-control, megalomaniacal, cancer called USAPA. They're holding every pilot hostage, costing each pilot hundreds of thousands of career dollars ALREADY LOST until their illegal demands are met. They DEMAND access to every seat in PHX if disaster strikes again. The East is following the old adage, "what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine...if I need it".

The display of Arrogance and Greed is remarkable, the vehemence at which this illegal scheme is being demanded is simply stunning.

BTW, ask Cleary how the labor meeting went the other day...word on the street is he threw another temper tantrum demanding Management acquiesce to his view of "reality". Surprisingly, it didn't work.

 

[Missfit]

Well if ALPA National wasn't responsible for anything the US Air pilots or their reps did, I guess the millions of dollars they were getting every year wasn't very well deserved now was it?
I like how they can avail themselves of any responsibility for...basically anything, wouldn't we all like to get away with that!
They just want money...look at the stance they came out with in regards to experience...or any other major issue in the last few years. ALPA is doing what's good for ALPA.

The East pilots don't want the West pilots jobs...they want the jobs they had.
Before I hear someone comment on how US Air was going to go under and my personal fav "We bought you", save it.
It didn't happen and America West had no cash to buy anybody, in fact if US went under, HP would have followed shortly behind...don't believe me? I'm sure the CEO has said it countless times.

I think you guys are getting worried out West, the economy isn't getting any better they've already shut down Vegas. You want to come East and take those East jobs that, gosh darn it, you rightly deserve. Your furloughed guys are getting the chance...if there's any jobs the West deserves it's the ones on the 190.

The other mergers are working because they are between Legacy Carriers...DL/NW - UA/CO
Each airline is a little more similar in size, length of service and history than HP and US are
Unfortunately in this case a Legacy was merged with what amounts to a commuter airline. The East pilots shouldn't have to pay for YOUR career choice.