US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Freighterguynow]

under DOH would sweep into Phoenix....line holding captains.

It is exactly these angry FOs...the ones who will have their careers saved by the Seats in PHX if a mass furlough happens again,

You seem to assume the East would be downsized and PHX would be fine.

What would happen if PHX was cut 50% and the East stayed the same size?

 

[Missfit]

It is exactly these angry FOs...the ones who will have their careers saved by the Seats in PHX if a mass furlough happens again, that are driving this out-of-control, megalomaniacal, cancer called USAPA. They're holding every pilot hostage, costing each pilot hundreds of thousands of career dollars ALREADY LOST until their illegal demands are met. They DEMAND access to every seat in PHX if disaster strikes again. The East is following the old adage, "what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine...if I need it".

If a furlough happens again those 3 month wonders deserve to be furloughed, Heck the 5 year wonders deserve it too. If a MASS furlough happens the company will probably be out of business anyway and all of you will be on the street. Qualification wise I wonder who would be hired first?

 

[Metroyet]

You seem to assume the East would be downsized and PHX would be fine.

What would happen if PHX was cut 50% and the East stayed the same size?

What difference does it make? DOH protects all of those who brought nothing to the merger. At a minimum, if you brought an active job the merger, you should have some expectation that an unemployed pilot can't simply replace you.

This was idea was acknowledge and outlined in the Joint statement of Labor Principles. You guys want to ignore that. Besides. Phoenix is the 5th largest city in America. Bigger than PHL. PHX is still one of the fastest growing cities in America. I'd be more concerned with PIT, BWI, BOS, LGA, IAD,...oh wait. Nevermind.

 

[Metroyet]

If a furlough happens again those 3 month wonders deserve to be furloughed, Heck the 5 year wonders deserve it too. If a MASS furlough happens the company will probably be out of business anyway and all of you will be on the street. Qualification wise I wonder who would be hired first?

Unfortunately for you and "hubby" you don't get to decide who "deserves" what. I know Cleary has convinced you he's the King of a new fiefdom but it doesn't work that way in the real world. His and the BPR's record of complete failure should be make this obvious but believe what you want. This attitude, the very one you're championing here, is exactly the reason why your household has suffered so much financial hardship. You'll never see that of course, you'd rather see the inside of a Federal Courtroom. That failed too, remember? Not every household is as comfortable as you are with Foodstamp (190) pay.

I'll agree with you that an airline that experiences the MASS furloughs, exactly the kind that your husband's airline did, should in all probability be out of business...all the pilots on the "street" as you say.

...but then again, Parker has a drinking problem....so that didn't happen. 😉

 

[Missfit]

This was idea was acknowledge and outlined in the Joint statement of Labor Principles. You guys want to ignore that. Besides. Phoenix is the 5th largest city in America. Bigger than PHL. PHX is still one of the fastest growing cities in America. I'd be more concerned with PIT, BWI, BOS, LGA, IAD,...oh wait. Nevermind.

Yes, it's sure growing...what's the GDP there? That's a pretty good measure of economic activity in the region...You can even go by state if you like. I'm thinking PHL is well above you in that regard. Must be why they fly international flights out of there.

As for it being the 5th largest...well PHL is 6th a difference of approx 50,000 or so, whoopty doo....so it's really not THAT much bigger. But hold that truth to your chest like it means something.

 

[Freighterguynow]

What difference does it make? DOH protects all of those who brought nothing to the merger. At a minimum, if you brought an active job the merger, you should have some expectation that an unemployed pilot can't simply replace you.

This was idea was acknowledge and outlined in the Joint statement of Labor Principles. You guys want to ignore that. Besides. Phoenix is the 5th largest city in America. Bigger than PHL. PHX is still one of the fastest growing cities in America. I'd be more concerned with PIT, BWI, BOS, LGA, IAD,...oh wait. Nevermind.

Why then a fence should be a grand idea shouldn't it?

Under the NIC, hundreds of unemployed West pilots can bid into East bases taking East jobs. The most awsome contract in the world is worthless if you're on the street - all the shiney pamphlets in the world fall on deaf ears over that one.

And Yes, yes I can afford to retire under LOA 93. Quite nicely in fact.

 

[Missfit]

Unfortunately for you and "hubby" you don't get to decide who "deserves" what. I know Cleary has convinced you he's the King of a new fiefdom but it doesn't work that way in the real world. His and the BPR's record of complete failure should be make this obvious but believe what you want. This attitude, the very one you're championing here, is exactly the reason why your household has suffered so much financial hardship. You'll never see that of course, you'd rather see the inside of a Federal Courtroom. That failed too, remember? Not every household is as comfortable as you are with Foodstamp (190) pay.

I'll agree with you that an airline that experiences the MASS furloughs, exactly the kind that your husband's airline did, should in all probability be out of business...all the pilots on the "street" as you say.

...but then again, Parker has a drinking problem. 😉

Yes, ALPA really did a number on the 190 pilots, I hope that the East expansion happens quickly so they can move up the ranks and make some more money. As far as financial hardship in my household...not really something that has happened. Thanks for your concern though, it's sweet of you to care.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Why then a fence should be a grand idea shouldn't it?

That might be a fine idea for the next merger after the NIC is implemented to integrate the HP/US pilots per the arbitration award and the controlling legal document – the Transition Agreement. As it stand now no person or group has been granted permission to modify the NIC. Not USAPA; not Management; not east pilots; not west pilots; not Santa Claus – no one, except George Nicolau, can modify his award. So you can dream of fences all you want, but they aren’t going to be added in to an already existing binding arbitration award.

 

[Freebird]

Why then a fence should be a grand idea shouldn't it?

Under the NIC, hundreds of unemployed West pilots can bid into East bases taking East jobs. The most awsome contract in the world is worthless if you're on the street - all the shiney pamphlets in the world fall on deaf ears over that one.

And Yes, yes I can afford to retire under LOA 93. Quite nicely in fact.

The most awesome career expectations in the world are worthless if youre on the street.

Glad to see the Leonidas Pamphlet made an impact. The undercurrent agaisnt Usapa is building. The farce of a union will fail once again !

Glad youre doing OK under LOA93. Enjoy it. You deserve it.

BTW, nice showing by Cleary at the work party. He really impressed Parker. You need to control your Poodle. All bark, no bite.

Usapa =Lowering the bar, still.........

 

[Freebird]

Yes, ALPA really did a number on the 190 pilots, I hope that the East expansion happens quickly so they can move up the ranks and make some more money. As far as financial hardship in my household...not really something that has happened. Thanks for your concern though, it's sweet of you to care.

Still banking on the LOA93 Arbitration? Dont spend it too fast !!!

Usapa = ???

 

[Missfit]

That might be a fine idea for the next merger after the NIC is implemented to integrate the HP/US pilots per the arbitration award and the controlling legal document – the Transition Agreement. As it stand now no person or group has been granted permission to modify the NIC. Not USAPA; not Management; not east pilots; not west pilots; not Santa Claus – no one, except George Nicolau, can modify his award. So you can dream of fences all you want, but they aren’t going to be added in to an already existing binding arbitration award.

An Arbitration award that doesn't meet ALPA merger policy...oh but wait merger policy doesn't apply once it's handed to an arbitrator...good ol' ALPA washing their hands again...It's really a shame the East doesn't have them around still looking out for the best interest of the line pilot. Because everyone knows that ALPA knows best!


Modification isn't an issue...implementation is....No one wants to modify the award at this point. Although I'm thinking ALPA did at Wye river, before they realized they were in fact an inept union that really (messed up) and was about to be kicked to the curb.

Since management is going to take as long as they possibly can to negotiate, well as long and as slow as they can without pushing the union into self-help. Any contract Nic or not is going to take awhile. Hook them up to a lie detector and ask them, they don't have any desire to move any faster than a snail's pace.

 

[CallawayGolf]

An Arbitration award that doesn't meet ALPA merger policy...oh but wait merger policy doesn't apply once it's handed to an arbitrator...good ol' ALPA washing their hands again...It's really a shame the East doesn't have them around still looking out for the best interest of the line pilot. Because everyone knows that ALPA knows best!

Easy to say – much harder to show proof that ALPA merger policy wasn’t met. Wait, didn’t the DL/NW merger use the same methodology? Yes, I think it did. Or maybe it is UA/CO using the same methodology. Yes, I do believe those mergers are all ratio-based integrations and there doesn’t seem to be any substantive challenges arising from using the ratio process per the same merger policy. Until you can prove that the ALPA policy hasn’t been met, there is no reason to believe it wasn’t given the evidence to the contrary.

Modification isn't an issue...implementation is....No one wants to modify the award at this point. Although I'm thinking ALPA did at Wye river, before they realized they were in fact an inept union that really (messed up) and was about to be kicked to the curb.

Yes, implementation is the next step in the process. All USAPA needs to do is negotiate a better contract and put the TA out for a vote to really find out how doomed the NIC award is (or isn't). The east pilots didn’t need to dump ALPA to do this so USAPA is just a really, really easy way for $eham to be enriched by a group who operate on emotion rather than fact.

Since management is going to take as long as they possibly can to negotiate, well as long and as slow as they can without pushing the union into self-help. Any contract Nic or not is going to take awhile. Hook them up to a lie detector and ask them, they don't have any desire to move any faster than a snail's pace.

Management will take negotiations seriously and will work towards a TA once USAPA stops sabotaging the process by asking Management to violate the TA and open themselves up to a certain legal suit that they believe they will lose if they discard the NIC. Until then, USAPA is playing Pee Wee Herman all by themselves.

 

[Barrister]

As does everyone else on this board, Especially now that the inmates have been released. Just trying to keep up the new pace they are setting. Someone has to counter the propaganda machine. It is our right as Americans, you know.



Yes, yes. Obviously. You must be right.

Or it could just be that I find it deplorable what the east is trying to perpetrate on the west. Let me ask you this... If you saw a person beating their child, would you walk by quietly since it doesn't affect you, or would you speak up and maybe even call the police? Some things are simply so wrong, a person is compelled to speak up, without having any other reason.



As do I. I have explained it enough times, even recently. So if you are really trying to understand, search my posts and you'll have your answer. I personally don't really care what your reasons are. It's a free country. What's really ironically telling is why you feel the need to have an understanding of mine. Does your sense of self require an absence of dissenting opinions? Or is it that you just want to redirect the conversation away from the glaring errors of omission that I illuminate, by questioning my motivation? I guess in my analogy, being married to the child beater would give the person the right to tell a passer by to mind their own business. Got it.




Whatever ALPA National did or didn't do, it was after the fact of US ALPA screwing things up so badly that they were in violation of ALPA national rules. And it doesn't change the fact that US ALPA (once again, your very own US Airways pilots) created the situation in the first place by not allowing the negotiating committee to do their job without the heavy hand of the East MEC controlling their actions under threat of recall, even in the face of an arbitrators warning to come off their unreasonable position.

But once again, no surprises here that you blame everyone but the players who actually are responsible.

Hey 767jetz....just curious....YES YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO POST HERE....
NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT..... CLEAR......But

Please give us a little non-identifyable info as to why YOU seem so upset by our little situation here
...your blood pressure seems way up over this....more so than any Eastie I know. What color and breed is your "dog"

JUST CURIOUS???

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[No Land Green]

You East guys love to ignore what's staring you in the face. The funny thing is you all actually seem to believe nobody else notices your B.S.. When they do, you all fly off the handle like true Narcissists.

I'll spell it out for you....slowly.

1879 of your brethren brought exactly NOTHING to the table except pink slips. Irrefutable fact.

Next in the event of another 9-11 style furlough ALL of those 1879 pilots who brought NOTHING to the table will REPLACE active America West pilots.

Here is what the Conditions and Restrictions will do, (C/R authored solely by the East for the East) in that scenario.

75% of the Former America West pilots ALL of whom brought jobs to this Merger would then be unemployed....again, having their jobs replaced with those EAST pilots that brought NOTHING to the merger.

93% of AMW captains would lose their seat to the former EAST pilots....many of whom brought NOTHING to this merger but under DOH would sweep into Phoenix....line holding captains.

Again, Irrefutable fact.

It is exactly these angry FOs...the ones who will have their careers saved by the Seats in PHX if a mass furlough happens again, that are driving this out-of-control, megalomaniacal, cancer called USAPA. They're holding every pilot hostage, costing each pilot hundreds of thousands of career dollars ALREADY LOST until their illegal demands are met. They DEMAND access to every seat in PHX if disaster strikes again. The East is following the old adage, "what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine...if I need it".

The display of Arrogance and Greed is remarkable, the vehemence at which this illegal scheme is being demanded is simply stunning.

BTW, ask Cleary how the labor meeting went the other day...word on the street is he threw another temper tantrum demanding Management acquiesce to his view of "reality". Surprisingly, it didn't work.

Sound like you are scared of being furloughed.......not me.........I'm not an "angry FO".......Don't you have faith in Doug Parker's Leadership running this great "new company"? Sounds like you are not too confident.

Oh, you think this job is a "career"?

 

[No Land Green]

What difference does it make? DOH protects all of those who brought nothing to the merger. At a minimum, if you brought an active job the merger, you should have some expectation that an unemployed pilot can't simply replace you.

This was idea was acknowledge and outlined in the Joint statement of Labor Principles. You guys want to ignore that. Besides. Phoenix is the 5th largest city in America. Bigger than PHL. PHX is still one of the fastest growing cities in America. I'd be more concerned with PIT, BWI, BOS, LGA, IAD,...oh wait. Nevermind.

Well there you have it, "PHX is still one of the fastest growing cities in America". Sounds like we are going to have a huge new aircraft order for the West and unlimited hiring to staff the West side. I wish you well, your upgrade out West must be right around the corner, no need to come East, is there?