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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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I found your viewpoint very interesting Beancounter.Do I feel the West pilots have reason to be angry? Absolutely. I will be honest and say had I been on your side of this, I would have been surprised at what I got, and angry I could not make it happen. As far as LOA 93 and the East pilots? I feel they are extremely angry with it. That anger coming from the stupid realization from those who voted for it to "save" the company, that their sacrifice was taken, and used to beat them over the head later, after the "trouble" was past. Personally, I voted no.I counsel everyone NEVER to take the first offer any way. And by the way, I honestly commended the west pilots at the time when I read you downed the first offer you were given some time ago, before this mess even transpired. Back to LOA 93- I think those who voted yes were those who honestly felt their sacrifice was necessary, and would be recognized. That is the trouble with being part of the transition while working with groups who actually valued you, to those who would use you. Simply, the East pilots who voted for it feel "had" and they are now going to follow all SOP s and FAR's to the letter. So, living under LOA 93 as some say is going to happen in perpetuity? Never going to happen.I don't think they will make it through the summer seeing the age of the people involved, and the anger they hold. There just is not that much to lose in their eyes. If Parker does not see this, he is going to have a long, hot summer. All a pilot has to do is follow the rules to a T, and this place is in big trouble. Nothing illegal, in fact just the opposite. Totally legal and above board. The way the FAA wants it done. All you have to do is operate your jet as if the FAA were in the jumpseat 24 /7, and it does not operate the way it used to. Not that I ever operated ANY other way. I see those who were on the "giver" side, now following the letter of the law in operating an airline. I really don't need to get specific about the particulars, but the west pilots absolutely understand what this means. Well, it is happening now. If you follow the letter of the law, the way it is written in airline ops. and FAR s- it can be extremely difficult to run an airline the way management is used to. They want you to carry things on, and it just is not going to happen.
I think there are enough people on both sides of this dispute that can actually agree, without name calling, that both sides have some very important arguments for their respective positions. It is just meeting at that middle ground that has to happen to then go on and beat the likes of Jerry Glass and Co. Any suggestions other than calling someone a scab or something like that?

Thank you for the response. I'm not angry about not being able to put a 17 year pilot under me who had never been furloughed. I will be angry though if USAPA trades DOH for a contract that is worse than the west's current contract. I will be especially annoyed if the courts then replace DOH with the Nic.
 
That's just Effing Terrific! It's also last years news.

Keep rearranging the deck chairs on your own personal Titanic until you feel Jerry Glass bending you over and giving it to you hard, fast and with no lube. All the while the dollars lost in wages, legal fees make the concept of being made whole an impossibility. Very Astute!! Thank God in Heaven that you goof balls don't actually run the airline.

Keep going with the "You Suck, No YOU suck, Oh Yeah well you suck more" as your income compared to other pilot group continues to RJ levels! Pretty soon Mesa will look like a step up for most. :angry:
BRILLIANT!

Why are you so concerned with our business? I have doubts you are just a concerned passenger. Why are you constantly sticking your nose in our dispute? Are you not getting enough attention at home?
 
Why are you so concerned with our business? I have doubts you are just a concerned passenger. Why are you constantly sticking your nose in our dispute? Are you not getting enough attention at home?


1 - Because I can!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

2 - Because it annoys you!! 😀 😀 😀

3 - Because over the years I've met a great many US employees and I do care about their fate!! 😱 😱 😱

4. All of the above.

I'll let you in on something. I was on these boards when you showed up and I'll be here when you're gone. Now run along and write some one up. Show us once again just what a snitch and a rat your really are. BTW, did you notice the end result on the other thread. Have the testosterone to admit you were wrong? I doubt a ball less wonder like you would be man enough to admit a mistake. Surprise me!!!! I make mistakes every day.

For example, I just made a huge mistake, I engaged a jackass(that would be you) on the internet. My apologies to everyone not named snapthis.
 
A problem I see is that if the NIC is used, American will be out of the picture. No one want a lot of young senior pilots as they are a permanent block to many careers.


I have been saying this for quite some time and it is absolutely correct. Of course, you can expect the west to twist this to their satisfaction. It is the only logical way to see it.

As far as any other airline is concerned; all they really have to do is put a 10 year freeze in place. Since it will take at least 5 to put something together; by the time it's done, the acquiring airline will own the planes and routes as most ofl the east pilots will be gone with a current average age of around 58. If the west could have looked beyond their noses; they would never have furloughed and would be well on their way to the same result. Now however, I doubt they will even be a party of the process and no amount of bickering on this board will change that. Their loss....

V
 
I see you've been consulting the "Magic Eight Ball" again there Nostro.

Really. Where do you come up with these fantasies?

The reality is, like the proverbial Albatross, you have will have USAirways hanging around your neck for the rest of your career and all the baggage that comes with that. No breakup of East and West. Single carrier, one FAA Certificate.

And that's the way it is.......
Where do come up with this sh#$! You and AMES sure are a dynamic duo! An AOC is referred to as a Air Carrier Operating Certificate in the United states


Transfer
As an AOC shows the acceptance of the relevant NNA of the operators personnel, infrastructure and procedures, it holds value. In most jurisdiction an AOC may be sold or acquired to prevent the arduous process of gaining regulator acceptance for a new AOC. This can allow failed airlines to be sold as a going concern and then more easily changed into another business. This has occurred with FLYi airline's AOC being bought by Northwest Airlines to start Compass Airlines, now a feeder airline for Delta Air Lines marketed as Delta Connection), and also with strategic Airlines purchasing the AOC, staff and routes of the failed ozJet airlineRequirements
The requirements for obtaining an AOC vary from country to country, but are generally defined as:[3][4]
Sufficient personnel with the required experience for the type of operations requested,
Airworthy aircraft, suitable for the type of operations requested,
Acceptable systems for the training of crew and the operation of the aircraft (Operations Manual)
A quality system to ensure that all applicable regulations are followed,
The appointment of key accountable staff, who are responsible for specific safety critical functions such as training, maintenance and operations,
Carriers Liability Insurance (for Airlines) - Operators are to have sufficient insurance to cover the injury or death of any passenger carried.[5]
Proof that the operator has sufficient finances to fund the operation
The operator has sufficient ground infrastructure, or arrangements for the supply of sufficient infrastructure, to support its operations into the ports requested.
The certificate is held by a legal person who resides in the country or region of application (for EAsA)


International variations
s.[6]


United States
According to the United states Department of Transportation, the Federal Aviation Administration is to maintain an airline air carriers operating certificate in the category of fitness an air carrier must maintain the following three standardshttp://www.dot.gov/affairs/1999/dot4199.htm: adequate financing, competent management, a willingness to comply with applicable laws, and regulations which include at least 75 percent of airlines controlling voting equity must be held by US citizens.


References


External links
CAA UK - List of UK COA Holders
CASA Australia - Search for an AOC.
"Though transparent to US Airways' customers, achieving the single certificate allows the airline to operate as one US Airways with one set of policies, procedures, computer systems, maintenance and flight control systems," US said in a statement. "The next step in the airline's integration is to achieve single contracts with pilots, flight attendants, and ground and maintenance employees, who will continue to work under terms of transition agreements reached after the merger."
Doesn't AMR, Alaska, Republic, etc, etc, have an operating certificate?
 
I have been saying this for quite some time and it is absolutely correct. Of course, you can expect the west to twist this to their satisfaction. It is the only logical way to see it.

As far as any other airline is concerned; all they really have to do is put a 10 year freeze in place. Since it will take at least 5 to put something together; by the time it's done, the acquiring airline will own the planes and routes as most ofl the east pilots will be gone with a current average age of around 58. If the west could have looked beyond their noses; they would never have furloughed and would be well on their way to the same result. Now however, I doubt they will even be a party of the process and no amount of bickering on this board will change that. Their loss....

V

V,
The Nicolau list is relative seniority, nobody from the west got any increased seniority- rather we all got pushed down 3-5% while you guys increased in seniority. Your perspective is typical of a 88 hire who wants everything- it is skewed since you think the west should have gotten stapled and since that didn't happen you are pi$$ed. Well, that's life dude, go squash some ants to make yourself feel better since you can't squash the west...
Long live Leonidas
 
V,
Your perspective is typical of a 88 hire who wants everything- it is skewed since you think the west should have gotten stapled and since that didn't happen you are pi$$ed.


The nerve of V, he has absolutely no right to be angry losing 17 years of seniority to a probationary new hire. I just cant believe he just doesn't get it. V should be treated as a new hire just as all those poor furloughed guys and gals. AWA was going places, just ask Isom. He even said it in the latest PHX Crew news video........

BTW, where did V say "stapled"? Mathematically impossible in a DOH list.

Happy Father's Day Chill!!!!
 
V,
The Nicolau list is relative seniority, nobody from the west got any increased seniority- rather we all got pushed down 3-5% while you guys increased in seniority. Your perspective is typical of a 88 hire who wants everything- it is skewed since you think the west should have gotten stapled and since that didn't happen you are pi$$ed. Well, that's life dude, go squash some ants to make yourself feel better since you can't squash the west...
Long live Leonidas
Answer: AOL and a box of rocks!
Age is how old the rock is relative to other rocks, position is where the rock is in relation to other rocks. Tectonic motion and other forces can easily turn a portion of the Earths crust upside down resulting in older rock lying above younger layers.




The AOL gotta luv it!
 
rather we all got pushed down 3-5% while you guys increased in seniority.

That may have been true relative to the day the award came out, but it is not how it is going forward. Going forward the junior AWA pilots make huge jumps in relative seniority vs AWA standalone, and the gains come from east pilots dropping the same. For example, according to the numbers I have, your USAPA rep that "doesn't care when he leaves or gets there", is at 58.5% of the west list. Nic would have jumped him to 52.9% by now. By retirement that goes from 13.7% west to 4.7% on the Nic., quite a leap.
 
1 - Because I can!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

2 - Because it annoys you!! 😀 :

3 - Because over the years I've met a great many US employees and I do care about their fate!! 😱

4. All of the above.

I'll let you in on something. I was on these boards when you showed up and I'll be here when you're gone. Now run along and write some one up. Show us once again just what a snitch and a rat your really are. BTW, did you notice the end result on the other thread. Have the testosterone to admit you were wrong? I doubt a ball less wonder like you would be man enough to admit a mistake. Surprise me!!!! I make mistakes every day.

For example, I just made a huge mistake, I engaged a jackass(that would be you) on the internet. My apologies to everyone not named snapthis.


SparrowHawk, on 09 June 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

I was born and raised in the PHL area and all kidding aside I'd be real careful with all of this internet bravado. You get "outed" and some of these hard core IAM types will make it their business to find out and word gets around as to which trips you take and you'll NEVER be on the gate on time or be allowed on the ramp until the absolute last moment. It will also NOT be an isolated incident, it will happen for YEARS.

SparrowHawk, on 13 June 2011-11:01 AM, said:
The Jersey Shore is roughly 1,400 miles away. If you would have actually either bothered to read or comprehend what I wrote I live in the upper midwest......

You remind me of a character named Slick Willy. I did not realize the Jersey Shore is 1400 miles away from Philly. Excuse my reading comprehension for thinking you lived in Philly when you claim you were born and raised there. Is PA considered the upper midwest? I guess that all depends what the definition of is....is.

You're a phony IRABob, pretend (Chairman :lol: ) passenger. 😛h34r:
 
The following video, paid for by america west pilots, insulting fellow pilot's age. Even judges are older women, who may not appreciate this conduct, if it was ever brought to their attention.

america west pilots video
 
There are those who would say that the current East gains, seniority wise, are at the expense of gains that were due West pilots.

Please watch the June 15th, PHX Flight Attendent Crew News. Robert Isom speaks to F/A complaints about West F/A scheduling. Isom explains that non efficient crew scheduling practices out west are due to basic faults and inefficiencies in the PHX hub. The profitable increase in flying is due to weekend leisure traffic.

There is a new scheduling system called Phoenix Flex that produces these scheduling inefficienies. PHX flying is where it is because of contractal requirements. There is a minimum flying requirement as per the Pilots transition agreement.

In the June 15th pilot Crew News a West Pilot stated that she had heard from "Jeff McCllelan that the PHX operation would be 30% smaller after the conclusion of the merger."

Parker has stated publically that 25% of West flying is not profitable.

Further commentary from ISOM in PHX.

Scheduling inefficiencies - Isom –
Changes to the West operation over the last few years… Vegas night system gone…Changes in PHX as well…PHX being much more leisure target. We have to be careful where we fly…it is the nature of the beast here in PHX. During the downturns, the PHX operation is pulled down. Phoenix Flex – put more time in PHX but only at times where we can do it profitably. We cannot run some markets 7 days a week because it will not make money.

Scheduling has identified that weekends are the times when we can service some markets profitably so we increase flying there. When you do that you get real inefficient lines. ”No ifs ands or Butts about it.” These are tiny pieces that are tough to string together.

WE HAVE HAD TO DO THINGS THAT ARE NOT EFFICIENT TO MAINTAIN THE MINIMUM FLYING AS PER THE CONTRACT. WE HAVE TO FLY AIRCRAFT AROUND THE EAST COAST AND THIS CREATES REAL LONG TRIPS.

The market in PHX requires that we schedule at critical times and that creates scheduling inefficiencies.
Increasing Relief Lines – Ison talking – “again Phoenix Flex because we can offset a revenue advantage because we have a contract, scheduling rules and an advantage on the cost side.”


Sorry but I fail to see how an East pilot who is moving ahead based on East attrition is stealing anything from a West pilot.
Merging seniority lists based on a snap-shot in time and ignoring the contributions of those employees who have worked for a long time is ridiculous.

On the basis of these public statements by management, what would a "snap-shot" look like now. What are West expetations now?
 
SparrowHawk, on 09 June 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

I was born and raised in the PHL area and all kidding aside I'd be real careful with all of this internet bravado. You get "outed" and some of these hard core IAM types will make it their business to find out and word gets around as to which trips you take and you'll NEVER be on the gate on time or be allowed on the ramp until the absolute last moment. It will also NOT be an isolated incident, it will happen for YEARS.

SparrowHawk, on 13 June 2011-11:01 AM, said:
The Jersey Shore is roughly 1,400 miles away. If you would have actually either bothered to read or comprehend what I wrote I live in the upper midwest......

You remind me of a character named Slick Willy. I did not realize the Jersey Shore is 1400 miles away from Philly. Excuse my reading comprehension for thinking you lived in Philly when you claim you were born and raised there. Is PA considered the upper midwest? I guess that all depends what the definition of is....is.

You're a phony IRABob, pretend (Chairman :lol: ) passenger. 😛h34r:


Ever hear of U-haul Jackass? I also mentioned I'd moved. Pay attention son this constantly having to correct you grows tiresome. Just like when I reached out to help a customer. Noticed you haven't posted there because you were WRONG AGAIN!

Never minding the fact it takes away from the point I was/am trying to make is that the constant infighting is what is going to crush you. The external forces like Jerry Glass can lay back and sip fine cognac and smoke expensive cigars while you do destroy yourselves from within.

Even funnier was one of my favorite movies, "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was on last night and as I was watching it occurred to me why I enjoy reading the pilots thread. The similarities were frightening.

Don't you have someone to rat out Tough Guy? Perhaps write up a Flight Attendant? Ramp Agent? CSR? Surely as Doug Parker's butt boy there must be SOMETHING putrid you can do?

I was going to ask if you were East or West, but then I read a few of your posts and I figured out you must be Mesa or Republic as no mainline pilot could be a bigger idiot. PS: Try to learn the quote feature. I know it's tough but if you take your nose out from between Doug's Butt cheeks you can see better 😀
 
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