AFA labor discussion (Work related)

[DesertFA66]

Look, to this day we have east f/a's that have NO IDEA about anything west related. You have east f/a's that have NO IDEA what Midatlantic was. You have east f/a's that have NO IDEA there are f/a's recently displaced. You have east f/a's that HAVE NOT educated themselves about the current negotiations. The same f/a's that will use PBS to live their lives don't even own G'damn computers. God help us all as the east group of f/a's are some the biggest bunch of idiots. I hope they vote the crap in and the damn union self implodes. ENJOY ! ! ! ! 🙄

East and west both need to take a look at tentative agreement in it's entirety before a vote either direction.

East contract becomes amendable at the end of 2011 at which point the only option will likely be "reach a single agreement". No section 6 negotiating a new east only contract and no snaps back to the original contract. This is a very unlikely scenario. Splitting from the pilots? It will probably have to happen unless east is real happy with their current contract and prefer it go on as indefinitely as the pilot battle.

Any jumping to irrational conclusions on pieces of the deal some have seen and read is not a smart way
To do it. There will be good and bad in any agreement. The legacy US Airways is gone. There is no returning to past wages and perks pre bankruptcy, it is not going to happen. Good wages can be obtained, but with drop downs in other areas or current language. No further concessions can ever be expected,,,,,

 

[Onestep2flt]

East and west both need to take a look at tentative agreement in it's entirety before a vote either direction.

East contract becomes amendable at the end of 2011 at which point the only option will likely be "reach a single agreement". No section 6 negotiating a new east only contract and no snaps back to the original contract. This is a very unlikely scenario. Splitting from the pilots? It will probably have to happen unless east is real happy with their current contract and prefer it go on as indefinitely as the pilot battle.

Any jumping to irrational conclusions on pieces of the deal some have seen and read is not a smart way
To do it. There will be good and bad in any agreement. The legacy US Airways is gone. There is no returning to past wages and perks pre bankruptcy, it is not going to happen. Good wages can be obtained, but with drop downs in other areas or current language. No further concessions can ever be expected,,,,,

While I will agree you have to READ any agreement in its entirety there is a big hole in what you are saying. I am sure you do not mean it this way, but what you seem to be saying is read it but ignore the one section that has been agreed to already that rolls you under the bus. Come on now, I don't even have to live under it and know at least for the east folks they are being led to slaughter with the reserve T/A. I hope you are not saying that they are being irrational because they are choosing to ask a few legitimate questions that up to this point have not been answered to their satisfaction. Instead they have been told that their is just one person with a vendetta against the negotiators and are just trouble makers. I can tell you that the friends I have within your group are not trouble makers. I can also say that there are more than just one person with some serious questions left unanswered.

I think one of the sticking points is that after five years the best that can be negotiated is an agreement that anything put to paper can be changed by the director of crew scheduling saying there is an operational emergency. Well, my friend says that in your current agreement is says that for being released. However, the problem is trying to determine sometimes where the emergency is. They are told they can't be released do to weather. Fair enough, goes and takes a look at the weather channel and they are saying clear and a million for the entire country except for a small chance of rain in North Dakota. Sounds made up, but it is not. Again, what is an emergency and why does it exist? Is it a true emergency or something that could have been prevented like poor planning on behalf of your company. You are giving up too much control to your company. While they need some operational flexibility this is clearly way to much!

Now, with the new improved agreement, it should just be prefaced with "at the whim of crew scheduling" because even me an outsider reading this thing comes away with. Almost every paragraph contains something to that effect. That is pathetic and it is just one of many issues my friends are all talking about.

Again, read the entire agreement but have the since to stop and ask questions when you read something that asks you to go jump off a bridge. Trying to get someone to blindly follow you is a little Jonestown-ish to me.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

East and west both need to take a look at tentative agreement in it's entirety before a vote either direction.

Splitting from the pilots? It will probably have to happen unless east is real happy with their current contract and prefer it go on as indefinitely as the pilot battle.

Only if a majority of the FA's vote for it. Not looking so good on the EAST Side of town.
As far as the situation with the pilots, this will continue for as long as the current players are content with being treated like trained monkeys. When they realize how much "wealth is being transferred" to the desert how other airlines (with good labor relations) compensate their pilots and integrated seniority (fairly and without windfall) - that all will change - QUICKLY. And both side are dreaming if they think it is going to go down straight NICOLAU or DOH. The sooner that is realized, the sooner they move forward.

Any jumping to irrational conclusions on pieces of the deal some have seen and read is not a smart way
To do it.

Neither is blindly supporting an agreement that allows it to be modified at the whim of scheduling and benefits a very small percentage (PBS) at the detriment of everyone else.

There will be good and bad in any agreement. The legacy US Airways is gone. There is no returning to past wages and perks pre bankruptcy, it is not going to happen. Good wages can be obtained, but with drop downs in other areas or current language. No further concessions can ever be expected,,,,,

Let's think about that....we are basically the lowest paid of all the majors (due to BK contract) and merging with HP, yet even with that "economic advantage", the only way "US has been able to make a profit" is to sell garbage on the aircraft and charge bag fees. SO our competitors are able to consummate mergers, be profitable, yet still able to compensate their flight crews according to an industry standard. The highest paid of the bunch doesn't even charge bag fees. Hrmmm. Sorry no one is even going to consider a contract that doesn't have substantial improvement in ALL sections. "we already gave at the office"....literally.

These issues and obstacles really don't sound like a labor cost issue, sounds more like a Bravo Sierra management issue.

The fact that the union is so adamant about me voting for this contract makes me very nervous considering the players involved.
When the company is serious - I am quite sure the flight crews will be as well.

The concession, aircraft cleaning, and eroding work rule stand is NOW closed.
And I don't care if it is on the East Side of town or the West Side of town....it's still closed.

When the company is serious - so will we.

I now return you to our regularly scheduled program already in progress....

 

[cactusgirl]

Glucose- You are spot on!

For what it is worth, everybody I have run in to at work out here on the West is saying "no". Reasons vary from PBS to the reserve section to just not liking the idea of giving ANYTHING up. We've already lost a few things based on what the west MEC has put out and people are not happy. The West scheduling chair is telling people we could see $55.00 an hour top out rate, but then there are West VOICE committee members telling people we would be crazy to vote down a $7.00 an hour pay raise. Who knows what the real money story is, but I think it's safe to say that if ANY member of the JNC thinks that the East or West FA's are just going to look at the compensation section of a TA and vote based on that alone, they are wrong and clearly there is a disconnect. I, along with many other FA's have a certain expectation for a lifestyle beyond just an hourly rate. You could give me $60 bucks an hour, but if you've totally annihilated our scheduling flexibility via PBS, taken vacation away, increased my health costs, allowed the contract to be deluged with ambiguous language that benefits the company/scheduling...then the answer is "no". The company's hard-on for PBS should be a red flag to everyone except the top 5% or so in seniority, because they aren't effected.

Now, we can all agree or disagree on whether this impending TA should be ratified, but it's not going to matter one da*n bit if people don't get off their butts and vote when the time comes.


It seems the East and West FA's may be more united in a common goal than we think. I am suspect of not only the company but union leadership as well because of the disconnect that seems to be apparent between the JNC and the wishes of the FA's.



To Gallley Princess- I agree with your thoughts on representation and should the TA be presented and voted down, I would certainly entertain the notion of a change in representation. Maybe that's what will be needed, a decertification of AFA?

 

[flygirl74]

Flygirl74, I am not sure if you were poking at Zarah or not. That is fine you don't ask how they vote, just if they voted. However, I will remind you Zarah did not elect any MEC officer which is what is being presented at the moment. That is done by all your LEC reps. Telling them not to complain about it is not exactly fair
[/quote]
No jabs @ Zarah. This was an internal jab. You see, when we were presented with our last contract - ya know the one with a gun to our heads -with the take a serious pay cut or be out of a job, most people claimed to have voted "NO". Yet here we are. Anyway, years later, the union loves to point out that everyone claims to have voted no and where are the yes voters??!!
Also, I am not so much talking officers but the contract. We may not like the officers but we can vote yea or nea on the contract and supposedly the last contract had a 37% vote. So my point is, vote. And if you don't get what you wanted at least you tried. How many times I sat on the j/s and a whiner goes on and on..I ask if they voted....umm no!!! :angry:

 

[Onestep2flt]

No jabs @ Zarah. This was an internal jab. You see, when we were presented with our last contract - ya know the one with a gun to our heads -with the take a serious pay cut or be out of a job, most people claimed to have voted "NO". Yet here we are. Anyway, years later, the union loves to point out that everyone claims to have voted no and where are the yes voters??!!
Also, I am not so much talking officers but the contract. We may not like the officers but we can vote yea or nea on the contract and supposedly the last contract had a 37% vote. So my point is, vote. And if you don't get what you wanted at least you tried. How many times I sat on the j/s and a whiner goes on and on..I ask if they voted....umm no!!! :angry:

Well, looks like I owe you an apology then. I guess I was reading your post wrong and I am sorry.

I can definitely agree with what you are saying now with your voting issues. This is what I have been saying for quite a while now. I think you must delve a little deeper for an understanding as to why that is so. Your last two contracts were both "gun to your head" compilations as a result of two bankruptcies. Apathy is actually easy to understand since as reported by my Friends your union leaders were even saying that was the best you were going to get.

The problem now goes even deeper. You have a union that has basically been run aground by people that have forgot what they were there for. You have had in the time since bankruptcy local leaders that publicly call each other names, doing more ETB than union work and the list goes on. Of course voter apathy put these folks there and that is why you have the people that are presently negotiating your contract. Hard to gain any interest in the process when your union leaders can't take the time to answer a few simple questions. They feel as though nothing is going to change because it is now that leadership with the "gun to your head". They appear to be ignoring a whole group of people they are charged with representing.

It is good to see the grass roots effort to hold your leaders accountable for there actions. I hope this works out for you guys. The wall you must tear down is the ongoing lack of interest in the process. It is an uphill battle but not impossible. I hope you guys can save yourselves. It is hard to Gage on here since we have lost a lot of posters. I know there is the facebook page so maybe that is where the action is.

 

[Barrister]

Not addressed to you but just using your post as a jumping off point...



I'd just advise not getting caught in a situation like the pilots are in where it one side against the other. There's not a thing wrong with solidarity among the East FA's but the goal should be solidarity among US FA's, not that East dictates to West. While it's impossible to please all the people all the time, the goal should be to reach consensus on what pleases most of the members most of the time. It shouldn't be to please most of the East FA's and the West FA's will just have to follow along obediently.

Jim

Hey BB try this on for size......the West F/A with 10 years gets the 52 hour
holiday layover trip to Paris while the the 25 years East F/A gets the double short EWR. Yea
that's the ticket

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Onestep2flt]

Hey BB try this on for size......the West F/A with 10 years gets the 52 hour
holiday layover trip to Paris while the the 25 years East F/A gets the double short EWR. Yea
that's the ticket

NICDOA
NPJB

I am sure you are just trying to be funny, but does this really help your cause. You should all be united to improve the contract for ALL US flight attendants. That way you may get the chance to fly to Paris at some point.

My friends say the on the east that Paris is only about 26 hours and that most of the Europe trips go out a little more senior than 25 years on a regular basis. I am sure that there are more junior folks on some of those flights due to some of the secondary lines and the quick call for the reserve. Anyway I do not see the point of that post since the west never flew to Europe before just as the east never went to Hawaii. You do not control where your company chooses to fly their aircraft and from what bases. I am pretty sure when the economy dictates that you may see some of the new A330's end up out west too.


My one friend says that they do sometimes get the occasional Europe trip, but it is usually in the middle of the night after the plane returns for whatever reason. Then that 26 hour layover in Paris just turned into 12 and you have already been up for 24 hours so you will sleep for most of that time just to turn around and head back to the states. It is not all glamor is the common theme.

Again, I am sure you were just being funny, but focus on what really matters which is getting your JOINT NEGOTIATING TEAM to listen to EVERY one of you east and west for a contract that you can survive under. After that you can try for that Paris trip if you wish.

 

[flybynite]

Hey BB try this on for size......the West F/A with 10 years gets the 52 hour
holiday layover trip to Paris while the the 25 years East F/A gets the double short EWR. Yea
that's the ticket

NICDOA
NPJB

Think again.....DOH...

 

[VAflyGal]

Think again.....DOH...

Can you guys please leave the vitriol seniority fight in the pilot thread where it belongs? Rumor has it the company walked out of negotiations last week when AFA handed them the compensation proposal.
Looks like that big pipe dream so many had might be a metal rod covered in Bengay after all.
You don't HONESTLY think they were gonna offer us something to offset all this, do you?
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where these "big contract improvements" are... It's PAIRITY, people. West gets East pay, East gets west vacation, East gets West boarding times (concession), both sides get to clean more (concession) - Bid sheet weekend restriction goes away, bid sheet holiday restriction comes in (concession) - RSV section rapes everyone junior, scheduling gets to do whatever they want - PBS eliminates flexibility, splitting from pilots creates scheduling abuse potential, we forefit pilot rest regs, buh bye decent rest times... And on and on and on and on and on, just like all those bags the company is making millions on that we are dealing with everyday FOR FREE. And on and on and on and on....

2011, Section 6, CHAOS, NO MORE CONCESSIONS. NONE.

 

[N903AW]

2011, Section 6, CHAOS, NO MORE CONCESSIONS. NONE.

I agree with everything you said until you mentioned being released into Section 6 in 2011. Honestly, do you REALLY think that the NMB is going to allow the East to go into Section 6 negotiations when your current contract becomes amendable? They denied the West Section 6 negotiations and told West that they could only negotiate a JOINT, SINGLE contract. The West contract was amendable BEFORE the merger ever happened.

Why would the NMB do things differently for the East?

If the East membership thinks they are going to be released into Section 6 then they are truly misguided.

If there is going to be CHAOS it would have to be done illegally in the form of a wildcat work action.

 

[flybynite]

I agree with everything you said until you mentioned being released into Section 6 in 2011. Honestly, do you REALLY think that the NMB is going to allow the East to go into Section 6 negotiations when your current contract becomes amendable? They denied the West Section 6 negotiations and told West that they could only negotiate a JOINT, SINGLE contract. The West contract was amendable BEFORE the merger ever happened.

Why would the NMB do things differently for the East?

If the East membership thinks they are going to be released into Section 6 then they are truly misguided.

If there is going to be CHAOS it would have to be done illegally in the form of a wildcat work action.

I can't say what happened about the West contract situation but if this contract gets voted down....then they will have to go back to the table and work on it some more. If it comes to an impasse then they can ask for relief from the NMB. A cooling off period.

CHAOS might be an option after that. 🙄

 

[ebwgs]

N903 the fact that the company has been unable or unwilling to negotiate a contract with either the west after their contract became amendable, or the east after our contract becomes amendable may demonstrate an intractability on the part of the company that could very well lend itself to the NMB allowing a job action leading up to CHAOS. There is a such thing as one over playing his hand.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

I agree with everything you said until you mentioned being released into Section 6 in 2011. Honestly, do you REALLY think that the NMB is going to allow the East to go into Section 6 negotiations when your current contract becomes amendable? They denied the West Section 6 negotiations and told West that they could only negotiate a JOINT, SINGLE contract. The West contract was amendable BEFORE the merger ever happened.

Why would the NMB do things differently for the East?

If the East membership thinks they are going to be released into Section 6 then they are truly misguided.

If there is going to be CHAOS it would have to be done illegally in the form of a wildcat work action.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0611/106.html
[sub]AmWest (nyse: AWA - news - people ) almost goes out of its way to cultivate rocky relations with its work force, and employee bile poisons every public interaction. A senior executive at a rival airline says he has never seen a carrier whose approach to workers was so confrontational. "Employees feel they're being used," he says. "It's tough to get them to win one for the Gipper."

AmWest is the kind of employer that fires people on Christmas Eve (500 technicians in early December 1995). It took nearly five years to negotiate a first contract with flight attendants. [/sub]

There is a moral here:

The players are the same - so why would any of us expect a different outcome?

Expecting the company (AWA...let's not kid ourselves who is running the show) to do anything other than what they have done in the past, or currently regarding labor negotiations, is by definition CRAZY.

If in fact the company negotiators walked out of negotiations over the proposed compensation section - then that speaks volumes.

So wake up and LISTEN people.

So the next time you go to a meeting and hear the JNC report "What the company wants" and "what the company needs" .......respond simply with this:

US Airways Reported Record Profits - It was possible due to my sacrifice (and bag fees)

What the company needs is "x xxxx xxxx xx xxx xxx", now go back to the table and do the job that you were elected to do (on the JNC) and more to the point, what you are being paid to do: NEGOTIATE.

If you can't - we can find another organization or someone else that can. I learned that from the company.

 

[Travelpro72]

^^^^^Now THAT is a great post! ! ! !^^^^^