AFA labor discussion (Work related)

[crazylikefox]

C.L. Fox~

Regarding mergers and the uniquness of our situation: Never in the history of AFA or to my knowledge any other unionized group (under the RLA) has a membership been forced to work under their initial CBA for as long as the West. Never has a membership (West), been in Section 6, only to be put in recess due to a merger in order to get to a joint agreement that has gone on for 5 years. And during that 5 years have the membership (West) request to go back to Section 6 only to have management say, "we won't bargain with you here, we need to come to an agreement in joint talks.

Put on top of that, a membership (East) who has endured not one, but two bankruptices. Bankruptcies that have seen pay, benefits, work rules and pension decimated. A membership that watched as their company was being managed into the ground by those in senior executives. Those same executives that managed to save their parachutes while your pension was tossed out the window.

Now toss into the mix a process (joint negotiations) that has no avenue for self help (strike or CHAOS). Add all of those items together and you have an atmosphere that can only serve as material for a business book on "What Not To DO". Our situation is indeed unique!

I joined the JNC the last week in May. That does not shield me from the past 5 years of joint negotiations, nor does it excuse my lack of "historic" knowledge of why certain language was negotiated. To say I had to hit the ground running was a bit of an understatement. At that time the Reserve Section was all but negotiated. Except for minimum days off (which in the end was moved to the Scheduling Section), the Reserve Section was complete. I soon learned that while this section would be an improvement for West FAs (there are some who are critical of the language), I truly did not understand the level of angst there was on the East. It didn't take long for me to read and hear the disappointment of our East co-workers.

The term professional negotiators is batted around alot in our industry. Our staff negotiator is a professional negotiator who works for the JNC. Any other professional negotiator would do the same.....take direction from the committee.

It is acknowledged that I have not read the notes from your bankruptcy. I have learned by talking to other members of the MEC along with Mike and Carol. I don't want to get pulled into the debate whether their membership feels they are effective. That is not my call. I work with them. I have to have a certain level of trust in their knowledge of the history of US Air/Airways along with the history of the concessions. They have to do the same in return. We will not let them dictate what they believe the West FAs want or need, just like I can't tell them the East doesn't want to split from the pilots. When they tell us this is critical, we have to believe that is the case. That is how this works. Remember, Lisa and I are trying to represent West interests, while Carol and Mike represent East interests. In the end you hope to get to a single agreement.

Now, I've said this before and will do so again with all the respect I can lend.......when a TA is put before you, that's the time to read, weigh and then vote. Should you like it, you vote yes, should you hate it, you vote no. I don't mean to simplify this as most of you have been through this more times than me. We loose our strength when we take our "laundry" and air it publically. I can't control who we negotiate with no more than the next person. I'm sure there are times with the East JNC wants to toss me out of a window. But in the end we have to bring this membership a TA to consider. Let me say this again....we have to give you a TA to consider. If we don't get to that place, there is no way we can convince management the reasons why we (JNC) might have been right in the first place.

The only things I can promise, is to do my best and be honest and up front. I'm not a politician. There's no political gain for me, in fact, it opens me up to a lot of flack when I post on web boards. However; we are in the age of wireless communication so it's either remain silent or try to communciate even if it means getting my butt put in the perverbial sling from time to time.

Respectfully,

Deborah
DVolpe78@aol.com
I'm also on Facebook

Deborah,
I want to let you know that I think it admirable that you have indeed come on this board, and "put yourself on the chopping block" so to speak. And I do respect your willingness to answer the pundits. A personal thank you from me to you, and my intention was not to bash you.
I agree whole-heartedly that we, as members, must read any agreement before us in its entirety and use OUR vote to express our pleasure or disdain. We differ in our thoughts regarding professional negotiators, let's concede to each our individual opinions on that.
At some point, this will have to stop being about what the East wants and the West wants and the word "compromise" will enter the conversation. Let's face it, no one is ever 100% happy with everything. That's the art of compromise and negotiation. The ideal is to find a common ground, a give and take, where the whole is bettered.
Others here have brought up very interesting points. What we all need to remember is that we as a group must stand unified. The other side enjoys a JNC that at times appears disjointed. I am not naive and realize that you most certainly have discussed between the two sides the bottom line on what is negotiable.
The language of any contract is essential. So, may I suggest that total concentration go into it. From experience on the East, a simply change in the wording from an "or" to an "and" virtually obliterated benefits due on medical leaves and workman's Comp.
Best to you in your attempts on the JNC.

 

[DVolpe]

Deborah,
I want to let you know that I think it admirable that you have indeed come on this board, and "put yourself on the chopping block" so to speak. And I do respect your willingness to answer the pundits. A personal thank you from me to you, and my intention was not to bash you.
I agree whole-heartedly that we, as members, must read any agreement before us in its entirety and use OUR vote to express our pleasure or disdain. We differ in our thoughts regarding professional negotiators, let's concede to each our individual opinions on that.
At some point, this will have to stop being about what the East wants and the West wants and the word "compromise" will enter the conversation. Let's face it, no one is ever 100% happy with everything. That's the art of compromise and negotiation. The ideal is to find a common ground, a give and take, where the whole is bettered.
Others here have brought up very interesting points. What we all need to remember is that we as a group must stand unified. The other side enjoys a JNC that at times appears disjointed. I am not naive and realize that you most certainly have discussed between the two sides the bottom line on what is negotiable.
The language of any contract is essential. So, may I suggest that total concentration go into it. From experience on the East, a simply change in the wording from an "or" to an "and" virtually obliterated benefits due on medical leaves and workman's Comp.
Best to you in your attempts on the JNC.

Fox~

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!! That is the point....to bridge and eventually blur the gap between West and East. That is the main reason I decided to be on this site and open up my Facebook. There is absolutely NOTHING TO HIDE!!!!!!! When I'm wrong, you will read an admission on my part with the additional request for "forgiveness". I have nothing to gain from this. In fact, as I just wrote to another East FA, I will most likely not be elected in this up coming election in PHX. And that's ok. It doesn't change the fact there is still work to be done. I'm running to finish the job, nothing more and nothing less.

My wish beside having a contract that all Flight Attendants can benefit from is for the combined membership to be as vocal and cohesive during good times as well as bad. Why is it everyone comes out of the woodwork only when there is a threat of recall? Our local meetings should be as well attended as a recall meeting. Seriously....(I'm about to get on my soap box)....for the life of me I can't understand why the voting percentages are so incredibly low. That's so wrong on so many levels.

The memberships' responsibility is to make the leadership accountable at all times....not only during heated times.

And finally, attention to detail in language is important. I learned that from living under an initial contract that was negotiated for only 5 years that is ready to enter it's 12th year.

Ok...flack jacket on............

Deborah

 

[cactusflyer]

It's the same reason people don't vote in national elections. People don't care. I was out 16 months for VLOA. Came back in Dec. My biggest deal with the union is the bids are horrible. I want a contract but I don't want screwed while I'm waiting for one.

Moving on.

I have a question for you easties. Can you guys really borrow IEM's from inflight if you lose or forget yours? If we don't have ours we get in deep do do. As in we can't fly our trip and get sent home.

 

[DVolpe]

It's the same reason people don't vote in national elections. People don't care. I was out 16 months for VLOA. Came back in Dec. My biggest deal with the union is the bids are horrible. I want a contract but I don't want screwed while I'm waiting for one.

Moving on.

I have a question for you easties. Can you guys really borrow IEM's from inflight if you lose or forget yours? If we don't have ours we get in deep do do. As in we can't fly our trip and get sent home.

Cactus~

Yes, the bids are horrible. The problem began when Chip Mayer took over as one of the Manager of Crew Resources. He's an East Pilot (no disrespect intended) who doesn't understand the West contract or any of our past practice. On the East, there is one set of pairings since the pilots and FAs co-pair. We have argued and debated with him for over a year and a half on the high number of 4 day trips along with the poor quality of the trips, including lack of cadence in the line construction.

I'm a commuter and have fill in for sick crewmembers without a manual. (For a time I would leave my manual in PHX) The few times I have covered for a sick crewmember, I have used their manual without any concern. Inflight was notified I didn't have a manual and had no problem with it.

Deborah

 

[songbirdstew]

It's the same reason people don't vote in national elections. People don't care. I was out 16 months for VLOA. Came back in Dec. My biggest deal with the union is the bids are horrible. I want a contract but I don't want screwed while I'm waiting for one.

Moving on.

I have a question for you easties. Can you guys really borrow IEM's from inflight if you lose or forget yours? If we don't have ours we get in deep do do. As in we can't fly our trip and get sent home.

Yes, on the East side they have spare IEMs in the crew room and we can get them on a loaner basis. It makes more sense than taking you off the trip, finding a RSV and possibly delaying the trip. I also had to borrow a suitcase one day when my zipper broke on mine. When I got my new one shipped to me, I took that one back.

I guess they have a problem with people not returning the IEMs that they borrow and I say shame on the company. They should let you borrow one for the trip you forgot it for ~~which then lets you fly the trip and go home and get yours~~then not let you fly again until the loaner is returned. It's not freakin' rocket science!!!!!

 

[HP_JACK]

Wow Volpe! Would you like some wine to go with that cheese? Why many of you think it is admirable that Volpe is putting herself out there on this board, there is a lot more to the story on the home front here in Phoenix. I don't think your a bad person Deb, in fact I am glad you stepped in when you did. Your experience surpasses Lisa and Jeff 10x! With that being said I'm not a huge fan at the same time. Why are you even bothering to run with your defeatest attitude already?

 

[malikie]

Wow Volpe! Would you like some wine to go with that cheese? Why many of you think it is admirable that Volpe is putting herself out there on this board, there is a lot more to the story on the home front here in Phoenix. I don't think your a bad person Deb, in fact I am glad you stepped in when you did. Your experience surpasses Lisa and Jeff 10x! With that being said I'm not a huge fan at the same time. Why are you even bothering to run with your defeatest attitude already?

Is it a defeatist attitude or common sense? I see it as Deb seeing reality and understanding that in this negotiation your group is giong to get only what the company wants. There will most likely be no release to section 6 and there will be no release to for job actions. So the company has the upper hand.

 

[DVolpe]

Wow Volpe! Would you like some wine to go with that cheese? Why many of you think it is admirable that Volpe is putting herself out there on this board, there is a lot more to the story on the home front here in Phoenix. I don't think your a bad person Deb, in fact I am glad you stepped in when you did. Your experience surpasses Lisa and Jeff 10x! With that being said I'm not a huge fan at the same time. Why are you even bothering to run with your defeatest attitude already?

Hey HP~

Wow, did I get a lot of private messages on me having (in your words) a defeatest attitude. Here's one of those times I say, I'm sorry for saying what I did. Truth be told, it more has to do with not being willing to engage in the "mudd for mudd" slinging (which has begun, based on the emails I have seen floating around).

Anyway, thank goodness you're not a fan....I would rather have members get involved, disagree with me, come up with fresh ideas and work together.

Deborah

 

[cactusflyer]

Hey HP~

Wow, did I get a lot of private messages on me having (in your words) a defeatest attitude. Here's one of those times I say, I'm sorry for saying what I did. Truth be told, it more has to do with not being willing to engage in the "mudd for mudd" slinging (which has begun, based on the emails I have seen floating around).

Anyway, thank goodness you're not a fan....I would rather have members get involved, disagree with me, come up with fresh ideas and work together.

Deborah

🙄 And here we go. Ya know most of us come on this board to talk with east counterparts and read about what is going on in the East. Not to read west people sniping at each other. I'll go to our board for that crap. While this board doesn't belong to the East, we all know they have the higher percentage of posters here. The west has their own discussion board. You two need to take this little fight there. I think I can say the collective FA's that post here could care less about the drama between you two or alleged emails, or alleged thefts or any of that b.s. It's OLD news. Grow up a little and move the f on.

Deb- It looks like you're "campaigning" here and I don't know why. Spending time here isn't doing a heck of a lot to build unity among the west, which based on what I've seen since I've been back the last month and a half sucks. You post more here than on our own councils site. where I've not seen a speck of mud or otherwise about any thing except the sucky bids.

Don't bother responding back with oops, sorry or anything, just move on already. Jeez.



So, back on topic. Sort of. To any East FA's. I was reading on some earlier posts about the new announcement booklet, have any of you gotten anywhere with anyone with your complaints? I emailed the Askinflight and copied Hector. I haven't gotten a reply yet. Every time I read the stupid thing I find more mistakes.

Also, what's the story on the pink linens. Is it just envoy or will be be getting them in 1st class domestic too?

 

[Travelpro72]

Well first of all I've agreed to carry it as it's required but I WILL NOT read that BS that is printed in it. It's one thing to follow orders but I'm not going to read announcements over the PA and sound like I haven't been schooled. As for the linens, well they are suppose to be on the way but I wouldn't look for them on domestic. Hell on Domestic we still don't have a simple plastic wine glass. It's pathetic yet we'll be told to our faces that our service is on par. Anyhow, back to the bickering.

 

[cactusflyer]

Travel, I have friends that are frequent flyers on UA and DL and I hear all about how great their first class service is on their flights. I can't understand how the people in the sandcastle can say we are on par. We aren't. It sucks. It is embarrassing to serve what we serve in domestic first class. Wine in plastic cups. Gross. I think we at least have glassware on international, but I'm not sure.

I'm with you on that stupid announcement booklet. In may bag it will stay. I'm not saying them! The old ones weren't great, but the are better than the new ones! Thanks for the reply. Sorry I couldn't come up with something to argue over with you. 😀

 

[galley princess]

I have said many times that what has happened to the West should be illegal. Being held hostage by a 1980's contract? Where else would that be allowed but the dysfunctional airline industry?

Having said that, I can tell you that East will not and wouldn't sustain this, for many reasons. I won't go into the fact that your state is labor unfriendly, your short history as a union etc. The fact is, your contract reflects the inexperience endemic in being a relatively young carrier. Ours doesn't.

I realize that much of what we say falls on deaf ears but there are very good reasons for hard core East F/As to be adamant on certain sections of our contract.

Me too
Bidsheet

Many junior f/as (of whom I am one) see these as obstacles to holding a block or having flexibility. On certain levels this is absolutely the case. We do pay a price for these benefits.

However.

In negotiations these two things are priceless. F/As don't have to spend time negotiating for stuff that is basically given to the pilots by either the FAA or just being acceptable industry standard.

We have all worked for AWA long enough to realize that they go into penny places that old US wouldn't have bothered. Our hotels have rapidly deteriorated, our onboard tools are the worst in the industry and we are seeing more and more "please respond within 24 hours" letters/ phone calls. Nevermind that you don't get paid to write up / report an incident because they took our basic forms away to try to get us to do their work for them off the airplane. If anyone doesn't think that if we separated from the pilots that this won't get worse, I suggest you really start to examine your work environment. They WILL have us running all over the airport for a five hour minimum day in 14 hours.

I hardly ever use the bidsheet, but I'll do CHAOS to keep it. Why? Because I know that by its presence, US East F/As can bring this company to a halt after about three days. That is the first reason that what has happened to West will never happen to the East. We don't have to be released into anything, we don't have to do anything that is termed a "labor action", all we have to do is have unity for three to four days. ETB is NOT a replacement for the bidsheet. All it does is let the company throw the burden onto the F/A.

Most of us diehards will be gone in about ten years. What you negotiate now, you will live with for a long time, as West can attest. Money is important but work rules affect your daily life.

It is my opinion that MF and CA are going to come to some kind of mediocre agreement with the company and put it to a vote. Read it carefully and then examine it for its use at negotiating time, because before you know it, you are negotiating your future again and your future demands more than just a mediocre raise.

 

[galley princess]

At the risk of sound cranky, I submit that f/as should really stop worrying about the onboard service provisions. That FC customer has chosen the plastic cup. Not our problem. If US sees a business shift due to a cup, they'll address it. In the meantime, worry about your own dishes.

Yeah, I'm cranky.

 

[Zarah]

In this case, for some, I think the plastic cup and the glass wine glass represent far more then just being a cup to hold a beverage.

 

[Travelpro72]

Management doesn't care what the customer thinks about their beverage be it in a cup or a glass. They don't think it matters to them so why should it matter to YOU. This management circus doesn't care what the employee thinks about their work environment nor do they care about our constant "whining" for change. Cheap and lowering the bar goes WAY beyond "the cup" in first class but it's a prime example of just what is acceptable to them. Tacky, unprofessional and ignorance topped off with pure disdain for anything customer or employee related seems to sum them up pretty good. 😉