Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

I can't speak for the author, but he is probably right. Did you expect to fly an A330 from PHL to Europe? I didn't expect to fly a 757 from PHX to HNL either. Probably best to leave it to the lawyers.

Where those the expectations of 33% of the pilot force on furlough when Doug came calling in 2005?

 

[nycbusdriver]

What missive are you referencing? Take your time, you're going to be on a wild goose chase so get back with me when you find this "inane" document.

I guess you have a short memory when it come to hot water. Hot water also refers to......
Doc 286.

Wonder what the "trigger" was?

 
Okay.  Time to put the booze away and get a good night's sleep.  You're blathering nonsense now.  I hope the vodka wasn't cheap, or you're going to have one helluva headache tomorrow.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I'm aware of your situation and am sorry for your loss.

I watched an airplane go in with that friend behind the controls and the resulting fireball.

I'm sick and tired of this rookie crap when they can't back it up.

Call DR. PHIL JJ and get over your insecurity, it is ok you will not upgrade for a very long time!

 

[jimntx]

Show me a family that isn't! I think we will do okay. Not all wine and roses, but hopefully better than the last decade.

Of course we will be okay in the long run.  (As if any of us were consulted or control the outcome!)  Abraham Lincoln once said that "most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."  I was in college when I read that and thought at the time..."Well, if I were 8 feet tall and ugly as sin, I guess I would try to maintain a cheerful attitude too in hopes of being invited out in society at least occasionally."  But, eventually I realized that the man was right.  I discovered that about 90% of the stuff that was upsetting me was none of my business, and about 90% of what was left was beyond my control.  (Gives me a very narrow field for being P.O.'d.)

 

[Claxon]

Where those the expectations of 33% of the pilot force on furlough when Doug came calling in 2005?

Your expectations were set too high sir.
 

 
"The airline (america west) has $70 million worth of debt payments due on Jan. 2 and may be forced to file for bankruptcy protection early next week if its application for a federal guarantee worth $380 million is not approved, according to industry analysts."

Your america west airline was first in line at the ATSB loan office.  Two years later you were are a profitable airline? Fuzzy math.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/27/business/america-west-is-first-test-of-us-airline-bailout-program.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fB%2fBankruptcies

 

[Pi brat]

Where those the expectations of 33% of the pilot force on furlough when Doug came calling in 2005?

Yep. If US stayed in business, which it did, those 33% had a place in line since they had lifetime recall rights with the US contract.
 
At least you don't claim that you,personally, saved their jobs.
 
Doug took advantage of a golden opportunity that has paid off royally for him.

 

[Pi brat]

Your expectations were set too high sir.
 
Your america west airline was first in line at the ATSB loan office.  Two years later you were are a profitable airline? Fuzzy math.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/27/business/america-west-is-first-test-of-us-airline-bailout-program.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fB%2fBankruptcies

I don't think they were profitable 2 years after the ATSB loan, were they? Pretty sure they had an annual loss for the year before the merger and only had a small profit in the quarter before the merger on fuel hedging.

 

[Zone5]

You forget how Judge Silver became Chief Justice.

 
I haven't, she became Chief Justice because she was the then "senior" Judge.  I guess you (and she) would have to agree that that DOH thing isn't all bad!
 
 
seajay

 

[Claxon]

 
Katz & Ranzman, P.C. KATZ & RANZMAN
5028 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W., Suite 250 A t t o r n e y s a t L a w
Washington, D.C. 20016
Tel: (202) 659-4656
Fax: (202) 237-2487
Daniel M. Katz
(202) 659-1799
danielmkatz@comcast.net
 
May 3, 2007
 
VIA E-MAIL
Captain Philip Carey
Captain Robert Kirch
First Officer Kevin Barry
 
Re: US Airways-America West Seniority Integration Award
 
Dear Phil, Bob and Kevin:
 
As we discussed in our conference call this afternoon, I have enclosed the Award
I received today from George Nicolau. The combined list is composed of a series of
ratios, based on the number of positions each pilot group had in various categories as of
1/1/07. The combined list is built from the separate 1/1/07 seniority lists.
 
All US pilots on furlough as of 5/19/05 are junior to Dave Odell. Monda is
immediately senior to Odell. Dean Colello is immediately junior to Odell and is followed
by the 1,750 US pilots whose names appear below him on the 1/1/07 US seniority list.
The top 517 names are all US Airways pilots. This group includes 423 active
pilots plus 94 non-flying pilots (MGT, MED and LOA). The number 423 is derived from
the sum of the A330 and B767-I Captain and First Officer positions. The senior America
West pilot, Capt. McNerlin  (SCAB), appears on the combined list immediately senior to US pilot
D.S. Lesh, DOH: 4/22/81.
 
The next group comprises the next most senior 167 US pilots and the top 90 AW
pilots who were flying on 1/1/07. These positions correspond to the B757 Captain jobs
as of 1/1/07. Forty-eight pilots in non-flying status (MGT, MED and LOA) are reinserted
into this group, as with the top group.
 
The next category corresponds to A320 and B737 Captains and consists of 873
US and 767 AW active pilots, plus 255 extracted and reinserted non-flying pilots.
Following these pilots, there are 176 US and 87 AW active pilots, corresponding to the
B757 First Officers, plus 56 extracted and reinserted non-fliers. The remaining pilots
through Monda and Odell were ratioed 840 to 718, based on the number of A320 and
B737 First Officers at the respective carriers on 1/1/07, with 224 non-fliers reinserted
after the application of the ratios to those who were active on 1/1/07.
 
The Award includes some Conditions and Restrictions. In addition to the
standard no-bump/no-flush provision and other stipulated Conditions and Restrictions,
Arbitrator Nicolau imposed two others of his own devising. The first is designed to
protect the access of the US pilots to the wide body, international flying they brought to
the merged carrier. It reserves 161 Captain and 262 First Officer positions on the A330
and B767 “for the top tier pre-merger US Airways pilots for a period of four years from
the date of this Award.” The condition “ceases to exist,” however, if the Age 60 rule is
changed to an Age 65 rule prior to May 1, 2011. Another condition deals with “new” and
“replacement” aircraft and gives the “replacement” positions on wide body, international
aircraft to the US pilots (up to the specified quotas) and allocates “new” jobs 2:1 on wide
bodies and 1:1 on narrow-bodies. The Award also continues the Conditions and
Restrictions of the Kagel Award (including those from the Piedmont-Empire seniority
integration), as well as the Eischen Award, which allocates EMB-190 positions.
 
Jim Brucia wrote a concurring and dissenting opinion, which accompanies
Arbitrator Nicolau’s Opinion and Award. Captain Brucia disagreed with the placement
of the US Airways pilots who were on furlough at the date of the announcement of the
merger. He said that most have been offered recall because of the enormous attrition at
US and that their extensive service prior to being furloughed justifies placing them higher
on the merged list.
 
A couple of points occur to me that may be worth mentioning. I’m sure these
observations won’t soften the devastating blow of losing the hard-fought battle with
respect to the pilots on furlough on the date of the announcement of the merger. But they
should be said now anyhow.
 
First, the top 517 pilots on the US list constitute a substantial number – 18% of
the pilots on the US list through Monda as of 1/1/07. The number is smaller than the
number who would occupy the top of the list on a date-of-hire list, as we proposed, but
the career choices available to these pilots will prove significant to them. Their
placement at the top of the list also improves the standing of those junior to them.
 
Secondly, the Arbitration Board’s use of 1/1/07 lists has allowed the junior US
pilots to benefit for seniority integration purposes from the attrition that occurred between
5/19/05 and 1/1/07 – more than 300 “attrits.” In addition, although the other side argued
that the Age 60 Rule was gone, the Board constructed the merged list on the assumption
that it would remain in effect. Also, the AW representatives argued for assumptions that
America West would have grown absent the merger and that US Airways would have
contracted further, but the Board rejected those arguments in favor of a static fleet
assumption. We could have done worse. The other side asked the Panel to put Monda
and more than 750 other active US pilots junior to Odell. They lost on that issue.
The Conditions and Restrictions may provide some protection. For example,
condition number 5 covers the positions on “new” aircraft, such as a B777 flying to
China, which are to be allocated 2:1 in favor of the US pilots.
 
Finally, please accept my thanks for the opportunity to work with you on this
project. I appreciate the hard work, determination and cooperative spirit you displayed
throughout the long and exhausting process.
 
 
Very truly yours,
/s/ Daniel M. Katz
Daniel M. Katz

alpa handled this very dishonestly. 
 
alpa knew the 65 year old rule was on the way.  The west pilots had no wide bodies.  The west just cashed their atsb loan check right before the merger.  america west 757 pilots to this day make the same pay as 320 pilots.
 
"Us Airways, America West Seniority Dispute rough draft timeline

2005-2006  US Airways, United in merger talks

2005 Us Airways, America West merge

May 2007  Arbitrator George Nicolau’ pilot seniority award was issued.  The award was written with the assistance of two ALPA pilot neutrals, Steve Gillen United Airlines Pilot and  Jim Brucia former Continental pilot now United Airlines Pilot.

2007 Us Airways pilots ask ALPA to review the award.  ALPA president  John Prater, former Continental pilot now United Airlines pilot, assigns ALPA vice president Paul Rice, United pilot,  to review the award.

December 2007,  Paul Rice, United pilot, delivers seniority list to Us Airways.

2007  A group of Us Airways pilots start a drive to start their own in house pilot union.

March 2008  ALPA united airlines pilots put the Us Airways ALPA Mec in trusteeship.

April  2008  In a National Mediation Board sanctioned election, Us Airways pilots oust ALPA and vote in USAPA as their official pilot representative.

May 2008  United calls off merger talk with Us Airways.

June 24, 2008   United Airlines starts furloughing pilots that will eventually lead to 1450 pilots at United on the street.  Had a merger occurred using the Nicolau award derived with the assistance of United pilot neutrals,  Us Airways pilots would have suffered the brunt of the furloughs and few United pilots would have been affected.

2008  America West pilots sue for DFR against USAPA.

2009  2010 US Airways and United restart merger talks.

April 2010  United Us Airways end merger talks.

June 2010  The 9th circuit court rules in USAPA’s favor."
 
Clax

 

[Claxon]

 
Subject: A340
 
I saw Captain Stephan's MEC Chairman's message May 1, 2007 describing the
Association's view of the company A340 proposal, and thought this was an
important enough subject to let you know the company's perspective.
 
First, let me start by saying that the timing of the A340 LOA proposal last
week to the union has nothing to do with the timing of single agreement
negotiations or any company strategy related to those negotiations.  It does,
however, have everything to do with the requirement that if our China
application is approved by DOT, we must begin service March 2008.  With the
next session for single agreement negotiations set for May 8 and 9 (where we
plan to present our comprehensive proposal), and a tentative date of May 30
and 31 for the Association's reply, we were concerned that had we waited to
give the A340 proposal with our single agreement proposal, it would leave
little time to discuss and possibly reach agreement on the A340.  We didn't
want anyone to feel as though we were trying to leverage the China application
in single agreement negotiations, nor did we want to complicate the single
agreement negotiations further by pulling in the A340/China opportunity.  That
is why we kept it separate from those negotiations.
 
As background, when we announced plans to file an application for China, we
talked to ALPA representatives and gave them an overview of the application
process, including the required March 2008 launch date and the need to address
the duty day limitations that currently exist in the East agreement.  Later,
we held a second conference call with ALPA and indicated that because
preparation time was running short, we would be sending a proposed LOA.
 
Simply put, we believe we must reach agreement with the Association by June 1,
2007 in order to make the March 2008 required China start-up date.  To fly
this route, we need to begin plans to acquire simulators and start the
planning and training functions.  Since time was so short, we did not want to
attempt to further complicate the LOA needed for the China application by
attempting to resolve the final rates of pay for the A340 aircraft.  That is a
subject for single agreement negotiations.
 
We therefore proposed the duty day extension needed and indicated in the LOA
that we will fly the aircraft at whatever rates of pay may be agreed to in the
single agreement.  That left the issue of what would be the applicable pay if
for some unlikely reason the aircraft ended up being flown during the period
of separate operations.  To that end those rates already exist in the East
agreement, but have never undergone the appropriate calculations through
restructuring.  There wasn't any reason to do those calculations because we
didn't fly those particular aircraft at the time.  Thus we went ahead and
accomplished the calculations and sent the proposal.
 
We fully expect the pay rates at which these aircraft would be flown would be
negotiated through our single agreement negotiations before we begin service.
What is important today, however, is that we address the duty day limitations.
Absent any agreement on those points, we will not be able to pursue this
opportunity; and that would be incredibly disappointing for all of us in my
view. While we continue our single agreement negotiations, let's not lose
sight that we can continue to build a better tomorrow for all of us by taking
advantage of opportunities like China in March 2008.
 
Thanks for taking the time to understand our perspective.
 
Captain Ed Bular
SVP Flight Operations/Inflight

china A340 bait.  Dangle a big airplane in front of pilots, how original.  The company came up with the china A340 bait to get a single contract to get the nic leagal, then they could get the ok from united pilots to merge with usairways.  Nice try crooks.      You almost got away with it united pilots prater, gillen, brucia and rice.  You will love a new book that is coming out about this.  Nice try doug and pilot friends.  (formally ual now amr pilots.)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwsWXQz6lU

 

[Res Judicata]

alpa handled this very dishonestly. 
 
alpa knew the 65 year old rule was on the way.  The west pilots had no wide bodies.  The west just cashed their atsb loan check right before the merger.  america west 757 pilots to this day make the same pay as 320 pilots.
 
"Us Airways, America West Seniority Dispute rough draft timeline
2005-2006  US Airways, United in merger talks
2005 Us Airways, America West merge
May 2007  Arbitrator George Nicolau pilot seniority award was issued.  The award was written with the assistance of two ALPA pilot neutrals, Steve Gillen United Airlines Pilot and  Jim Brucia former Continental pilot now United Airlines Pilot.
2007 Us Airways pilots ask ALPA to review the award.  ALPA president  John Prater, former Continental pilot now United Airlines pilot, assigns ALPA vice president Paul Rice, United pilot,  to review the award.
December 2007,  Paul Rice, United pilot, delivers seniority list to Us Airways.
2007  A group of Us Airways pilots start a drive to start their own in house pilot union.
March 2008  ALPA united airlines pilots put the Us Airways ALPA Mec in trusteeship.
April  2008  In a National Mediation Board sanctioned election, Us Airways pilots oust ALPA and vote in USAPA as their official pilot representative.
May 2008  United calls off merger talk with Us Airways.
June 24, 2008   United Airlines starts furloughing pilots that will eventually lead to 1450 pilots at United on the street.  Had a merger occurred using the Nicolau award derived with the assistance of United pilot neutrals,  Us Airways pilots would have suffered the brunt of the furloughs and few United pilots would have been affected.
2008  America West pilots sue for DFR against USAPA.
2009  2010 US Airways and United restart merger talks.
April 2010  United Us Airways end merger talks.
June 2010  The 9th circuit court rules in USAPAs favor."
 
Clax

James, you need psychiatric help big time. Tom Wales didn't deserve it and you're obviously sliding into a dark mental chasm again. Get the help you so desperately need before you hurt someone else again.

Striking resemblance, isn't it James.

 

[Claxon]

James, you need psychiatric help big time. Tom Wales didn't deserve it and you're obviously sliding into a dark mental chasm again. Get the help you so desperately need before you hurt someone else again.

Yes, you added so much to the debate about the bait.  I do not have access to a cro-magnon interpreter at this time, so it is very hard to communicate with you. 

 

[traderjake]

 
[SIZE=10pt]I for one am ashamed of your condemnation of USAPA in its entirety...[/SIZE]

 
You should be ashamed, about what is where you have a problem.

 

[Phoenix]

 
You should be ashamed, about what is where you have a problem.

 
 
What? You are getting all serious and psychologist like on us.... Your levity is so much more becoming.   Can't we get another short person joke. 😀

 

[traderjake]

 
 
Obviously, in your world, the world is indeed on your side.  Some day I may be senior, but alas I will never progress to the point of grasping the opinion of the whole world. My sincerest congratulations of your accomplishment, sir.   🙂

 
I'll give you a little help, look at the last 5 pilot seniority arbitrations.