What's new

Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pi brat said:
Geez Bean, it's all available online.
 
From the Nicolau opinion and award:
 
"The US Airways Proposal
The US Airways initial proposal was grounded on a pilot's Date of
Hire adjusted for Length of Service."
 
Let me add a few other tidbits that you might not be aware of from the award. About the AWA proposal to Nicolau:
 
"After the reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005
with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."
 
Generous, huh?
 
And this:
 
"Like that of US Airways, America West's position was not
substantially modified during the proceedings."
 
Have you read the Nicolau opinion and award? Did you read the transcripts of the last Addington II hearing? I suggest you do and stop taking all your info from people like snappy and res.
Thank you for sharing the quote, but you need to enlarge the, "Date of Hire."  That's the part that tacks our senior pilots under your FOs.  That's the part that is unacceptable and like I said, US east never backed off it.  There are other ways to give credit for LOS besides starting with DOH and working backwards.  This is all for naught though.  I don't see any other path, considering the animosity between our two groups, other than the courts and arbitration...for the arbitration 🙂   Have a good night. 
 
Bean
 
Beancounter said:
Thank you for sharing the quote, but you need to enlarge the, "Date of Hire."  That's the part that tacks our senior pilots under your FOs.  That's the part that is unacceptable and like I said, US east never backed off it.  There are other ways to give credit for LOS besides starting with DOH and working backwards.  This is all for naught though.  I don't see any other path, considering the animosity between our two groups, other than the courts and arbitration...for the arbitration 🙂   Have a good night. 
 
Bean
Well Bean, if you and your co-workers are too stupid to know the difference in DOH and LOS, I can't help you. DAMN!
 
Forgive me for giving you more credit than snappy and res. Carry on.
 
I had a west friend(A320 captain) tell me that he worked with the stupidest people on earth. I thought he was being harsh, but now I understand.
 
Beancounter said:
  I don't see any other path, considering the animosity between our two groups, other than the courts and arbitration.. 
 
Bean
News flash.  Great scoop and insight.  (sarcasm)
 
APA and USAPA will not go to arbitration, they will agree on seniority issues.
 
 
posted on December 09, 2013 09:10
The Road Ahead — Together
The powerful trend of airline industry consolidation has brought our pilot groups together through an unusual and historic process that will be studied for years to come. Rather than fight it, APA and USAPA recognized and embraced this trend. After many years of unfruitful talks at our respective negotiating tables, we've leveraged consolidation to our collective advantage. Today, we find ourselves in a remarkably strong position, with an even more promising future.
 
During the past 18 months, USAPA and APA have developed a collegial working relationship on many fronts, which will be instrumental to our collective success going forward. Our negotiating committees worked well together during the critical memorandum of understanding negotiations. Our cooperation was pivotal to bringing a deal together with a reluctant and unwilling AMR management team in the room. AMR's strategy at the time was to demonstrate that our pilot groups could not work together and that no deal would be achievable. We proved them wrong.
 
 
A healthy, functional labor-management dynamic must be embedded in the heart and soul of the new American Airlines. Our management team has promised a new corporate culture — we're going to hold them to that promise. We will begin joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA) talks soon and expect to achieve mutually beneficial results. A smooth transition from two airlines into one will depend on it.
 
 
Cooperative work between our two unions has been underway for some time. Committee members and national officers have addressed each other's boards. APA officials participated in USAPA road shows. Our DCA reps have conducted joint domicile meetings. Our training committees have established an outstanding level of cooperation and data-sharing that will benefit us all. The USAPA Retirement and Insurance Committee and the APA Pension Committee have already made substantial progress toward a pilot-only 401(k) plan, which we hope to implement in 2014. The APA Negotiating Committee and the USAPA Negotiating Advisory Committee have worked tirelessly together on the PBS memorandum of understanding, which is nearing completion. Those two committees have also worked closely in developing JCBA goals, which are being used as a starting point for our respective boards. Our boards have already conducted a joint get-acquainted meeting and are planning another to review JCBA goals and strategies after the first of the year.
 
 
integration — we  must respect each other's ways of doing things as we re-examine each company's approach to training, scheduling, bidding and other facets of our work life. Our shared goal is to ensure that we all enjoy careers commensurate with our status as pilots for a premier global carrier. We are committed to serving the best interests of the pilots we represent with the appreciation that in the not-too-distant future, there will be one pilot group: the pilots who fly for the new American Airlines.
 
 
Most of us have been down the merger road before, and there's one thing we can probably agree on: Moving forward, unity will be imperative. While we're not quite there yet, we should now consider ourselves one pilot group. As equals, an outreached hand and a smile will go a long way toward fostering the courtesy and respect we'll need as we look to an exciting shared future.
CA Keith Wilson
APA President

CA Gary Hummel
USAPA President
 
 
america west pilots eric auxier,  "tony the tbone" anger and bruce lecarre, produced this video accusing East pilots of a slow down.   These gentlemen then promptly complained about not having a better pilot contract.  I am just the messenger.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggeaGItegSo
 
Claxon said:
News flash.  Great scoop and insight.  (sarcasm)
 
APA and USAPA will not go to arbitration, they will agree on seniority issues.
Claxon,
 
What?  You mean this isn't going to be a drawn out, nut kicking contest?  I'm going to be really disapointed if that's the case (sarcasm).
 
Bean
 
Beancounter said:
Thank you for sharing the quote, but you need to enlarge the, "Date of Hire."  That's the part that tacks our senior pilots under your FOs.  That's the part that is unacceptable and like I said, US east never backed off it.  There are other ways to give credit for LOS besides starting with DOH and working backwards.  This is all for naught though.  I don't see any other path, considering the animosity between our two groups, other than the courts and arbitration...for the arbitration 🙂   Have a good night. 
 
Bean
Your attempt to be an original thinker and retorter failed.  Advice,  do not use my retort to retort, you stand the chance of looking like a complete idiot.
 
Claxon said:
Your attempt to be an original thinker and retorter failed.  Advice,  do not use my retort to retort, you stand the chance of looking like a complete idiot.
I for one glad Bean is back. I think he is really going to have a nice future, for he and his young family.
Once all of the old school East and West are gone, these guys are really going to have a career seeing all the competition is over and done with. For now.......
 
Claxon said:
 
posted on December 09, 2013 09:10

The Road Ahead — Together
The powerful trend of airline industry consolidation has brought our pilot groups together through an unusual and historic process that will be studied for years to come. Rather than fight it, APA and USAPA recognized and embraced this trend. After many years of unfruitful talks at our respective negotiating tables, we've leveraged consolidation to our collective advantage. Today, we find ourselves in a remarkably strong position, with an even more promising future.
 
During the past 18 months, USAPA and APA have developed a collegial working relationship on many fronts, which will be instrumental to our collective success going forward. Our negotiating committees worked well together during the critical memorandum of understanding negotiations. Our cooperation was pivotal to bringing a deal together with a reluctant and unwilling AMR management team in the room. AMR's strategy at the time was to demonstrate that our pilot groups could not work together and that no deal would be achievable. We proved them wrong.
 
 
A healthy, functional labor-management dynamic must be embedded in the heart and soul of the new American Airlines. Our management team has promised a new corporate culture — we're going to hold them to that promise. We will begin joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA) talks soon and expect to achieve mutually beneficial results. A smooth transition from two airlines into one will depend on it.
 
 
Cooperative work between our two unions has been underway for some time. Committee members and national officers have addressed each other's boards. APA officials participated in USAPA road shows. Our DCA reps have conducted joint domicile meetings. Our training committees have established an outstanding level of cooperation and data-sharing that will benefit us all. The USAPA Retirement and Insurance Committee and the APA Pension Committee have already made substantial progress toward a pilot-only 401(k) plan, which we hope to implement in 2014. The APA Negotiating Committee and the USAPA Negotiating Advisory Committee have worked tirelessly together on the PBS memorandum of understanding, which is nearing completion. Those two committees have also worked closely in developing JCBA goals, which are being used as a starting point for our respective boards. Our boards have already conducted a joint get-acquainted meeting and are planning another to review JCBA goals and strategies after the first of the year.
 
 
integration — we  must respect each other's ways of doing things as we re-examine each company's approach to training, scheduling, bidding and other facets of our work life. Our shared goal is to ensure that we all enjoy careers commensurate with our status as pilots for a premier global carrier. We are committed to serving the best interests of the pilots we represent with the appreciation that in the not-too-distant future, there will be one pilot group: the pilots who fly for the new American Airlines.
 
 
Most of us have been down the merger road before, and there's one thing we can probably agree on: Moving forward, unity will be imperative. While we're not quite there yet, we should now consider ourselves one pilot group. As equals, an outreached hand and a smile will go a long way toward fostering the courtesy and respect we'll need as we look to an exciting shared future.
CA Keith Wilson
APA President

CA Gary Hummel
USAPA President
American pilots do not go to arbitration. That is fact.
 
I read the arguments from the arbitration as well , P-Brat.
Both sides had their time on the floor and the arbitrator ruled.

"If the Merger Representatives are unable to agree on an integrated list, the matter may be referred to Mediation-Arbitration or directly to arbitration if the Representatives choose that path. In this instance, despite a year of negotiating efforts, there was no agreement on a list. Subsequently, the Representatives choose the Undersigned as Board Chairman and opted for the Med-Arb process. Those
mediation efforts, held over the course of five days in October 2006,
were similarly unsuccessful. Thereafter, the Parties agreed on the
arbitration ground rules, and, pursuant to the Policy, each chose a
Pilot Neutral from ALPA's Pilot Neutral Master List as a nonvoting
member of the Arbitration Board.After receiving pre-hearing statements of position, the Arbitration Board held a hearing over eighteen days in Washington, D.C. in the months of December, 2006 and January and February, 2007, during which both Parties were afforded full opportunity to offer evidence and argument and to present, examine and cross-examine witnesses. A transcript, consisting of 3102 pages, was taken. There were 20 witnesses and 14 volumes of exhibits."

How was US Airways doing?

"Its history shows a steady decline in its fortunes, with no hiring at all between 1990 and 1998, an unsuccessful Metrojet "airline within an airline" venture, an inability because of government disapproval to merge with a then stronger United Airlines, continuing furloughs after September 11, 2001,a concessionary Restructuring Agreement in July 2002, an August 2002 filing, a failed reorganization following its emergence from
bankruptcy because of its inability to resolve its structural problems, and a consequent second bankruptcy in September 2004, after which its pilots had to make additional concessions of both pay and
protection if the carrier was to have a chance to survive. When all this is coupled with the fact that as of the time of the merger there had not even been the presentation of a stand-alone reorganization plan to its creditors' committee it is plain that the career expectations of the US Airways pilots were bleak indeed, with no prospect of growth or significant advancement even through attrition, and the clear possibility of no jobs at all."

How about America West?

"In addition to the evidence of its financial performance, the fact is that 360 pilots, close to 20% of the work force, had been hired between 11/4/02 and the date of the merger. This, in contrast to the picture at US Airways, where therenwere no new hires after 4/7/00 and, as of the date of merger, no returning furloughees."

The most senior America West pilot was placed after more than 500 East pilots by Nicolau. How about our most senior pilots falling 500 slots? I did not see them throw a hissy like the Angry FO's who formed USAPA. FO's as in Furloughed.
 
Piedmont1984 said:
Leonidas Unconscious Projection.
Legally Undefinable Principle
Lets Use Pragmatism
LOS Uber (relative)Position (in case we merge with Lufthansa next)
Last USAPA Pronouncement
Looks Ultimately Practical
T-LAR. That Looks About Right. A captain named 'Action Jackson' taught me that method of descent planning.
 
Black Swan said:
American pilots do not go to arbitration. That is fact.
Well they have with west coast airlines like PSA, take Air Cal as an example..........er, nevermind.
Take Reno Air as an example...............er, nevermind.
Take TWA as an example..........er, nevermind. 
 
snapthis said:
How about America West

The most senior America West pilot was placed after more than 500 East pilots by Nicolau. How about our most senior pilots falling 500 slots? I did not see them throw a hissy like the Angry FO's who formed USAPA. FO's as in Furloughed.
The most senior pilot of america west was a scab.  america west wide body aircraft?  america west pilot airplanes all paid the same.  Like bret butler said in a phx pilot meeting, china air is your only chance.
 
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2007-06-26-amwest-senior-pilot_N.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top