autofixer
Veteran
"No RJs, No Airways>"...just what does that mean? What exactly are RJs supposed to do:be spacific now? How are these little darlings going to save UAIR?
Us Airways Pilots Put Final Nail In The Coffin!
- Thread starter WOJetDreamer
- Start date
I appreciate the tactic you used presenting your thoughts without the inflammatory remarks included.skeezer said:Regardless if WO's facts and figures are 100% accurate, I believe he/she makes a valid point. The company needs scope relief from the pilot group (along with possible more concessiosn :angry: ) or it might just be over for good. Taking a hardline stance at this point may not be the smartest thing to do. The company is in a very deep pile of stuff and I believe Bronner when he says he will not default on the ATSB loan. I fully understand that nobody wants to give back to the current management team (and again I can understand that because of what they have done with past concessions), yet there is a big time crunch here. Something needs to come quickly from management (preferrably) or the unions, or both, or this will be over real soon.
All the plans that have been released depend on the RJ's to help keep US Airways afloat....no RJs, no Airways.
I guess it comes down to your job or your pride, take your pick. Either way, it's not good.
Peace!
Skeezer
For years and years working for this outfit there has always been these drop dead, deadlines of do or die. I can't count how many times we were all asked to write letters for flying routes to politicians, and do it fast least we perish. I remember when we didn't have enough money to even file bankruptcy; it goes on and on and on. It's like the patient in the critical care unit when the family all gets together and decides it's time for their love one to die, saving the patient and all involved any more prolonged grief. I feel that way with U, it's time to just let it die given the turbulent history because no matter what we do, write letters, work harder with less money and benefits, giving vacation time, sick time up and a lot more but still we are constantly on the brink of extinction. I say pull the plug and let us die in peace. Dave and his sorry excuse for a management team is destined to stay because big Dave has too much pride, or is that stupid not to realize Dave Siegel has run his course and is no longer able to rally enough support, is anemic in his power and people are no longer willing to continue to live and fight another day for him or with him. Sad, but this is not just I speaking for myself, this attitude has metastasis and has blanketed the entire corporation.
The RJs will fly routes that a mainline aircraft cannot make money on. A 737 with 30-40 people won't make money, but a CRJ on that same route will. Additionally, some turbo-prop routes need to be replaced with RJs because a lot of passengers simply do not want to fly on a prop and will take another route/carrier to do so.autofixer said:
Do I think RJs are a miracle cure that will save the world? No. But they do have their place and due to many different circumstances US Airways is way behind the times in getting these aircraft out flying.
The point I was trying to get across in that sentence was that in the only plan that US Airways management has put forth, the acquisition of RJs was a major part in bringing the route structure back to profitability.
Personally, I do not want to see RJs simply taking over mainline routes with a loss of mainline jobs. I want to see the mainline aircraft displaced by RJs fly to new and more profitable destinations so that people can keep their jobs and hopefully if things improve more furloughed workers can get back to work sooner.
Cavalier, I respect your opinion and agree that this whole situation sad. In the short time that I have been in the US Airways family (albeit the red-headed step child
) I have seen what a great group of people work here and it saddens me to see it all crumble apart because of bad decisions, the major part of which have come from management. Skeezer
Bob, funny how a pilot would know what a utility person makes.PineyBob said:
Lets do the math, post concessions utility person earns $35,000 a year for 40 hours of work per week, prior to concessions they made 6.8% more.
So to make $70,000 a year, a utility person would have to work 80 hours a week, that is equivilant of two full time jobs.
Where a pilot works three days a week for six figures.
Let me raise my hand and say.... ME ME MEPineyBob said:
I have worked in what are known as sweat shops, nonunion where you work hard, fast and don't miss time and are always punctual, if you're not, you are fired and the next guy is standing in your place waiting to jump on command.
I have never been fired or let go because of incompetence or being lazy and have always worked hard including here at U when called upon, even now with less than scrupulous people at the top.
There comes a time when enough is enough Bob, no matter what. You go on and carry what self-respect you have left to carry.
Actually many of the "GAG" is the group that never had to see the other side of the coin. Most who would be associated with that group including many of the GA7, the MEC Chair and Vice Chair were hired between 1980 and 1985. I don't want to lump every one in that time frame together because their are some real solid individuals. Their is a group in their though that is directly represented by the GAG and it's a problem.The were hired during a periord of record growth, enjoying the best contract in the idustry(that their predecessors had built) and were captains in 2-5 years. Having it handed to them without building it thmeselves and then enjoying fast upgrade led to a entitlement attitude, purchasing the big home, the boat, the courtry club memmbership etc. and always expecting it to be so. So much so they would sell their brother down the road to ensure it. The first thing this group did at the first threats by management was subject the next group of hires to the B-scale. No willingness to forgo raises, no though of longer longevity payscales, no thought really to any other economic solution to the company, just protecting their own OX a the expense of other if necessary. It continued anytime thier was a percieved crisis and they found it easier to capitulate to incompetent management and further enable and subsidize poor management decisions than risk their OX by standing firm as a group. Thus it has continued for almost two decades with one retreat after another, none of which has proven to make this a stronger company and looking to only to protect their own OX and the mst aggregious of contractual changes or pain falling just below them. The only exception of recent is the DB pension plan and this is suspect. Most of the GAG that approved this have enough years left to recieve all the DC payments into their plan, maxing it and another 5-10 years of paychecks. That is their first priority and ppreserving the company or the profession is just lip service.
The sad thing is there are always alternatives and they didn't seek any, nor have they ever, the thoughts to risky. it's just been better for them to protect thier own and they really have no committment to this company beyond it holding together long enought to get theirs and get out. Unfortunately unless their is a clear business plan, with competent management who can motivate the workforce it is usally all for naught. It's like owning a lemon and taking it to the local garage which isn't that good. You can throw all the money at thw world at it and you only end up with a very expensive lemon that is doomed for the scrap heap anyway. I think most of the GAG really just want to buy some time to make sure it sticks around long enought o get theirs and couldn't give a rat's behind beyond that. Any kind of stance demanding a plan, accoutability, and cooperative relationship with Labor, although that is what is need to ensure any chance of long term sucess is just to risky to their OX. It's safer to just let everyone else's get gored but hopefully some new blood and people who are committed to the comany and the proefession might just be what the doctor is ordered. Iwould think at the very least managemnt is scrambling to produce something dymanic in regards to strategic direction because anything less woon't get support from the RC5 and thank god for that.
The sad thing is there are always alternatives and they didn't seek any, nor have they ever, the thoughts to risky. it's just been better for them to protect thier own and they really have no committment to this company beyond it holding together long enought to get theirs and get out. Unfortunately unless their is a clear business plan, with competent management who can motivate the workforce it is usally all for naught. It's like owning a lemon and taking it to the local garage which isn't that good. You can throw all the money at thw world at it and you only end up with a very expensive lemon that is doomed for the scrap heap anyway. I think most of the GAG really just want to buy some time to make sure it sticks around long enought o get theirs and couldn't give a rat's behind beyond that. Any kind of stance demanding a plan, accoutability, and cooperative relationship with Labor, although that is what is need to ensure any chance of long term sucess is just to risky to their OX. It's safer to just let everyone else's get gored but hopefully some new blood and people who are committed to the comany and the proefession might just be what the doctor is ordered. Iwould think at the very least managemnt is scrambling to produce something dymanic in regards to strategic direction because anything less woon't get support from the RC5 and thank god for that.
I don't look anything like George Burns.PineyBob said:
I have been on both sides so I can give a true point of view. Seniority is good and bad, bad from the standpoint it doesn't account for skill, just time, which is not right and I am a total union man all the way. That said; man being man wanting people to work for nothing while they grown very rich makes unions a necessity.
Until God comes down and referees the world there will always be a need for unions to buffer the exploitations that comes naturally to greedy corrupt people. Yes Bob, these same corrupt people are in the union high ranks as well, but without some sort of balance with the unions, you, yes YOU would NOT be making the amount of money are, it's fact I won’t get into, let 700 educate you if necessary.
Hmmm,700UW said:
A topped out Aircraft Cleaner making twice his usual annual income..and this is somehow the workers fault?
This is a clear indication that the ranks have been reduced to nothing but the topped out employee's remaining...as well as being a clear indication of under-staffing by 50% in this particular work group alone. :down:
Don't fault the employee's for this. Management agreed to the levels of compensation with the individual unions that represent these employee's....and management is the very same group that has reduced the ranks to the point that certain eager beavers are able to double their earnings on an annual basis.
Who loses in this situation? Certainly the furloughee's lose...certainly the product and customer loses due to the fact that a person can work twice as much as often.yet can't be in two different places working at once.
I wish you people could figure out for a change just exactly whom is directing things here , as opposed to leading here. Labor is not the problem..and employee compensation isn't either. The problem is short sighted and visionless leaders whom could not inspire a horse to drink...simply because they couldn't lead it to water to begin with.
Pilots Would have one contract regardless of wholly owned or mainline. Rates would be negotiated based on seniority and plane flown. Meaningful Profit sharing would be established in exchange for the changes above. Pilots would be paid 90% of the average of the rates paid to AirTran, WN, JB & AWA. The balance plus 10% would come in as a profit sharing formula that was attainable and would be earned from this like percentage of actual profit, plus bonuses for on time performance and attendence and the like. If the company and pilots are successful they make MORE than the identified competition.
I would go even a step further. Don't rate by any aircraft type, just by seniority. America West, UPS, Frontier and Midwest have such a system in place. How come that these airlines can do it. Further more, the crews of aircrafts that take off 3 - 5 times a day work a little harder than the ones that only takes off and lands once a day. That way there is no more argument what you fly, just that you fly.
I would go even a step further. Don't rate by any aircraft type, just by seniority. America West, UPS, Frontier and Midwest have such a system in place. How come that these airlines can do it. Further more, the crews of aircrafts that take off 3 - 5 times a day work a little harder than the ones that only takes off and lands once a day. That way there is no more argument what you fly, just that you fly.
I see top management is currently looking at your words and reading you points.Phantom Fixer said:Hmmm,
A topped out Aircraft Cleaner making twice his usual annual income..and this is somehow the workers fault?
This is a clear indication that the ranks have been reduced to nothing but the topped out employee's remaining...as well as being a clear indication of under-staffing by 50% in this particular work group alone. :down:
Don't fault the employee's for this. Management agreed to the levels of compensation with the individual unions that represent these employee's....and management is the very same group that has reduced the ranks to the point that certain eager beavers are able to double their earnings on an annual basis.
Who loses in this situation? Certainly the furloughee's lose...certainly the product and customer loses due to the fact that a person can work twice as much as often.yet can't be in two different places working at once.
I wish you people could figure out for a change just exactly whom is directing things here , as opposed to leading here. Labor is not the problem..and employee compensation isn't either. The problem is short sighted and visionless leaders whom could not inspire a horse to drink...simply because they couldn't lead it to water to begin with.
Too bad it won't change anything though...
WOJD -WOJetDreamer said:
I have no idea where you get the idea that USAirways pilots get $200,000/year. Prior to our multiple rounds of concessions, we "oldtimer" captains were making salaries in that range simply because it was industry standard---parity +1% which was an idea cooked up by Gangwal and Wolf, not ALPA.
No one EVER got that for working 10 days a month. Not then and CERTAINLY not now. And now only the few dozen most senior A330 captains get salaries that barely squeak past the $200K mark.
And, ironically enough, your contention that it's these "oldtimers" who are the hardliners is pretty much totally wrong. It's these "oldtimers" who are wailing and moaning about the RC5 jeopardizing their last few years of income and DC pension funds.
You just have no idea what you are talking about. Probably because you are singularly focused on your WOJetDream, and would rather see the mainline sacrifice everything to get jet time in your logbook.
Forget it.
Piney -PineyBob said:
I think your plan is a good outline of how things might actually be made to work. Many are under the mistaken impression that the USAirways pilots are totally against any further concessions. That's a mistaken impression. USAirways pilots have always been, and still are, ready to lead the way in whatever is necessary to make this company healthy. If that includes concessions, so be it.
That being said, the USAirways pilots are NOT willing to go the way you suggest at the behest of present management. Management has made no progress at all with the incredible resources we (all labor groups included) have given them. They still won't make any meaningful changes without our signing over blank check contracts and letters of agreement. THAT will not happen this time around.
The pilots are now at the point where we are willing to walk away from the mess created by management over the last 15 years. Simply put, enough is, at long last, ENOUGH.
I truly see your point, I do...but that doesn't make unions obsolete because man is still man and will still take full advantage. Corporations run by greedy men are doing just that with the current administration allowing thousands of jobs to be outsourced overseas so the already rich people become extremely wealthy and the middle class struggles, some even becoming welfare cases and working poor. Balance, it all about balance and without it we will become another India very fast.PineyBob said:
Not everyone is blessed like my son who can earn a high level of education at a young age and prosper. There are many people without such gifts that also deserve a change at a decent life without worrying about tyranny running their lives.
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