US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Jim, you cannot say this for certainty. You cannot pin USAPA to the NIC as the ONE reason. It was the final straw for many of us. I was not there when it was "dreamed up." I really cannot agree that the sole reason was to evade NIC. Maybe it was for some, but you must agree that is your opinion, and conjecture. My reasoning was this- if ALPA remained, their promise of separate ops was going to be broken. We would have woken up one morning, being told of why our ALPA leadership had no choice other than to implement NIC. It happened with the pension, and they were NOT getting another shot at me personally. They had to go before they got to take the shot. Your statement "As nic4us said,USAPA was formed to evade the Nic award" is opinion, and should be taken as such, not a factual statement.

Swan,

There was no ALPA promise of seperate ops. That was dreamed up by an east rep, I believe BOS based, at a post Nic Rice committee powwow. The TA is an implement to get to combined ops, not force seperate ops.

The Nic is the ONE overriding reason usapa was formed. That is not opinion, that is historical fact. Every roadshow usapa presented, outlined the strategy of evading the Nic. Bradford's inquiries to lawyers sought avoiding the Nic as the primary reason for usapa's formation. Those yellow lanyards the east wore said what? "ALPA is evil"? "Vote for Change"? no they said "Seniority Matters", a blatant display of usapa's intent to reneg on the Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

Jim, you cannot say this for certainty. You cannot pin USAPA to the NIC as the ONE reason. It was the final straw for many of us. I was not there when it was "dreamed up." I really cannot agree that the sole reason was to evade NIC. Maybe it was for some, but you must agree that is your opinion, and conjecture. My reasoning was this- if ALPA remained, their promise of separate ops was going to be broken. We would have woken up one morning, being told of why our ALPA leadership had no choice other than to implement NIC. It happened with the pension, and they were NOT getting another shot at me personally. They had to go before they got to take the shot. Your statement "As nic4us said,USAPA was formed to evade the Nic award" is opinion, and should be taken as such, not a factual statement.

What will your opinion be of USAPA when you wake up one morning and they tell you that USAPA is going to implement the Nicolau award? That usapa is ending separate ops because we have a joint contract?

Will you blame usapa or somehow blame ALPA because so many ALPA people are running usapa that usapa never really had a chance or really changed. But if only you could change unions again but this time have true pilot advocates then this time you could have your dream union.

When the ninth rules in favor of judge Wake who will you blame? Judge Wake, the three judges’, the court system, Seham, ALPA, USAPA or yourselves for chasing something unobtainable?

When you lose the LOA 93 arbitration who will you blame? The arbitrator, the company, ALPA, USAPA, The grievance chairman, the BPR for telling the pilots this story or yourselves for believing the story?

What are you going to do when USAPA takes a shot at you personally?

BTW when usapa was campaigning what was the slogan they used, do you remember?

“Seniority Mattersâ€￾

Not "Replace ALPA". "Vote a better union". "Pilots not pay loss". No USAPA ran on seniority, DOH to be exact and elimination of the Nicolau.

Does that sound like usapa was campaigning on the Nicolau or on replacing ALPA because the east wanted a better union? Is seniority matters a code for more democratic union? Replacing Nicolau is not an opinion why usapa was formed it is the campaign rally cry from usapa.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

What ALPA National atrocities did not also have AAA MEC fingerprints on them? And since the players on the AAA side haven't changed substantially, why should the results be any different?

The players have changed. Garland is retired. Svendsen will never be elected again (he wasn't in office yet during the retirement givaway, but aided significantly in the demise of stature of ALPA). Baker works for Airtran. I don't know if Hocking who went to Jetblu came back(not on bid). Oh yeah, Beebe is no longer at national.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Oh I'm sure he did work wonders. The Desert Judge better move fast before he gets pulled up short on his leash. This case was a hobby for him.........

Again you seek to defame the judge. Do you have any empirical proof that he is not a sound judge? I've asked all you that like to cast aspersions on him to put up some proof about any misdeeds that he may have performed.

Come on, either give us the proof that Wake is not a qualified judge or shut up about it.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Who cares what you think. Is this your argument? Live with your agreements, like real men do. In the real world agreements are in court every day this one is no different. This is why employees need unions because agreements are not kept. Business as usual

What part of Binding do you not get...?

The jurors got it.

 

[Black Swan]

What will your opinion be of USAPA when you wake up one morning and they tell you that USAPA is going to implement the Nicolau award? That usapa is ending separate ops because we have a joint contract?

Will you blame usapa or somehow blame ALPA because so many ALPA people are running usapa that usapa never really had a chance or really changed. But if only you could change unions again but this time have true pilot advocates then this time you could have your dream union.

When the ninth rules in favor of judge Wake who will you blame? Judge Wake, the three judges’, the court system, Seham, ALPA, USAPA or yourselves for chasing something unobtainable?

When you lose the LOA 93 arbitration who will you blame? The arbitrator, the company, ALPA, USAPA, The grievance chairman, the BPR for telling the pilots this story or yourselves for believing the story?

What are you going to do when USAPA takes a shot at you personally?

BTW when usapa was campaigning what was the slogan they used, do you remember?

“Seniority Mattersâ€￾

Not "Replace ALPA". "Vote a better union". "Pilots not pay loss". No USAPA ran on seniority, DOH to be exact and elimination of the Nicolau.

Does that sound like usapa was campaigning on the Nicolau or on replacing ALPA because the east wanted a better union? Is seniority matters a code for more democratic union? Replacing Nicolau is not an opinion why usapa was formed it is the campaign rally cry from usapa.

What will be your opinion when you wake up and USAPA prevails, and they tell you the company cannot put the joint contract together, and we have a stalemate?? What will you do when Judge Wake is found to have overstepped his bounds, and you have to wait until supposed damage ever takes place? Who will you blame? What will YOU do when USAPA takes a shot at you personally?What will YOU do when the East wins LOA 93? Will you engage in a job action, or will you blame yourselves for not seeking pay parity in the beginning? Will YOU blame the arbitrator, the company, or yourselves?Will you blame yourself and your co workers for not becoming MIGS because you passed on critical participation? What will you do when you can NEVER achieve a T/A because your greed and impatience over ruled prudence because you were in a better position and never quantified it...Who do you blame when you finally realize USAPA was not the result of just the NIC, yet you focused on that solely? Who do you blame when you realize this type of scenario you continue to throw out there is ridiculous, and can be countered very easily by taking just the opposite supposition?

 

[Black Swan]

Again you seek to defame the judge. Do you have any empirical proof that he is not a sound judge? I've asked all you that like to cast aspersions on him to put up some proof about any misdeeds that he may have performed.

Come on, either give us the proof that Wake is not a qualified judge or shut up about it.

You don't dictate any terms retiree. The appeal of the Desert Judge is pending. I say he gets brought up on his leash. We will just have to be patient.

 

[cleardirect]

What will be your opinion when you wake up and USAPA prevails, and they tell you the company cannot put the joint contract together, and we have a stalemate?? What will you do when Judge Wake is found to have overstepped his bounds, and you have to wait until supposed damage ever takes place? Who will you blame? What will YOU do when USAPA takes a shot at you personally?What will YOU do when the East wins LOA 93? Will you engage in a job action, or will you blame yourselves for not seeking pay parity in the beginning? Will YOU blame the arbitrator, the company, or yourselves?Will you blame yourself and your co workers for not becoming MIGS because you passed on critical participation? What will you do when you can NEVER achieve a T/A because your greed and impatience over ruled prudence because you were in a better position and never quantified it...Who do you blame when you finally realize USAPA was not the result of just the NIC, yet you focused on that solely? Who do you blame when you realize this type of scenario you continue to throw out there is ridiculous, and can be countered very easily by taking just the opposite supposition?

I asked first so how about answering my questions then I will answer yours.

When we lost the Suzie arbitration did you hear any west pilot complain or disparage the arbitrator? No! When USAPA lost the T/A 9 grievance did we blame the arbitrator? NO! We accepted the results and moved on. We don’t blame people or things we accept and move on.

How about east pilots? Where are you all going to accept and move on?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, you cannot say this for certainty. You cannot pin USAPA to the NIC as the ONE reason. It was the final straw for many of us. I was not there when it was "dreamed up." I really cannot agree that the sole reason was to evade NIC. Maybe it was for some, but you must agree that is your opinion, and conjecture. My reasoning was this- if ALPA remained, their promise of separate ops was going to be broken. We would have woken up one morning, being told of why our ALPA leadership had no choice other than to implement NIC. It happened with the pension, and they were NOT getting another shot at me personally. They had to go before they got to take the shot. Your statement "As nic4us said,USAPA was formed to evade the Nic award" is opinion, and should be taken as such, not a factual statement.

Sorry but didn't see this until someone else quoted part of it.

As you say, I'm sure it was the final straw for many individual pilots when they cast their NMB ballot. But that is still why USAPA was elected, not why it was formed.

I'd love to hear your list of facts to support why USAPA was formed for any reason than to evade the NIC award. I think you'll have a hard time coming up with any. Even the "ALPA would have implemented the NIC" isn't a reason since it 1 - says USAPA was formed out of fear that the NIC award would be implemented (which is another way of saying to avoid NIC), and 2 - gives ALPA more unilateral power than they had. Unless you can provide any letters from lawyers to Bradford while USAPA was being formed containing advice on something other than evading NIC, there aren't any facts out there to make your point.

Jim

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You don't dictate any terms retiree. The appeal of the Desert Judge is pending. I say he gets brought up on his leash. We will just have to be patient.

Don't be talking bad about the judge, unless you have proof. I realize he and Nic are scapegoats for the east because you all can't live up to binding arbitration, but you really don't want to defame or libel him. He is not to blame for USAPA's complete failure...its USAPA's fault.

This isn't about the company, this is about one union group not living up to an agreement with another union group.

 

[Freighterguynow]

This will be completely sewn up within 15 months or so and then the damages will be getting paid and this pilot group will be able to move forward.

Yea, hitting each East pilot with a $30,000 ( or so the dreamers claim ) bill will obviously bring us together so we can move on!

I have a better idea - the Catus 18 admit guilt and pay all the damages.

Yes, now THEN we can move on and pull together.

 

[Black Swan]

Sorry but didn't see this until someone else quoted part of it.

As you say, I'm sure it was the final straw for many individual pilots when they cast their NMB ballot. But that is still why USAPA was elected, not why it was formed.

I'd love to hear your list of facts to support why USAPA was formed for any reason than to evade the NIC award. I think you'll have a hard time coming up with any. Even the "ALPA would have implemented the NIC" isn't a reason since it 1 - says USAPA was formed out of fear that the NIC award would be implemented (which is another way of saying to avoid NIC), and 2 - gives ALPA more unilateral power than they had. Unless you can provide any letters from lawyers to Bradford while USAPA was being formed containing advice on something other than evading NIC, there aren't any facts out there to make your point.

Jim

Jim, I was not in on the group which formed USAPA. I cannot comment as to what actually transpired. I can only speculate, which is all you can also.

 

[Black Swan]

I asked first so how about answering my questions then I will answer yours.

When we lost the Suzie arbitration did you hear any west pilot complain or disparage the arbitrator? No! When USAPA lost the T/A 9 grievance did we blame the arbitrator? NO! We accepted the results and moved on. We don’t blame people or things we accept and move on.

How about east pilots? Where are you all going to accept and move on?

I have no idea what the SUZIE arb. is or the T/A9 grievance.

 

[cleardirect]

Yea, hitting each East pilot with a $30,000 ( or so the dreamers claim ) bill will obviously bring us together so we can move on!

I have a better idea - the Catus 18 admit guilt and pay all the damages.

Yes, now THEN we can move on and pull together.

How much do you think the RICO damages are worth?

How much do you think the Addington damages might be worth?

 

[cleardirect]

I have no idea what the SUZIE arb. is or the T/A9 grievance.

This explains a lot.