US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[EastUS]

Would they be immoral? Who gets to determine what moral behavior is? Is the behavior of middle eastern terrorist moral?

Time to look in the mirror and find the immoral ones.

"So now Nicolau is immoral and insane." That's always been my honest perception = Yes. What's your point?

"What would you call an individual or group that fails to live up to their agreements? " The line pilots of the east were held hostage to alpa just as the west now feel themselves to be under USAPA. Are you now completely fine with embracing any/all agreements made by USAPA as being your very own?...for which you personally take full responsibility? Are the west people nowadays morally bankrupt for even joining the current union, which they were "sworn to destroy", in order to stay employed?

"Is shunning your agreements ethical?" Apparently so. There's at least a great deal of lattitude out west in that regard. What happened to your west agreements that you were "never going to pay dues"...."never going to join"..and that it would be "All Out Warfare"..."I'd like to see them fire 1700 pilots"/etc?

"Would it be your perception or reality that the Nicolau list is immoral? Every other person or group that has looked at the Nicolau list finds it acceptable. That means that it is only the east pilots that perceive it to be immoral. Making your guys the small minority among the world." Ok..it's difficult to respond to that respectfully, as it requires witholding raucus laughter over your fantasies about how you "clearly" know the minds of "every other person" in this world of ours. I can fully assure you that "every other person" doesn't believe it's even slightly reasonable to place people who were grade school children, when others began professional careers, ahead of the latter in "seniority". Outside of these boards....I've yet to meet even one who subscribes to west views there.

"I find it interesting that you point to “factsâ€￾ that say the Nicolau has been unsuccessful. That is because the east pilots have failed to live up to your agreements. It is the east pilots that have failed to accept the list. It is the east pilots that have prevented this from being successful. It is the east pilots that have and are causing the labor disunity." Ok fine then. It's all the fault of the evil easties...what's new there? 🙄 Does that, in some/any bizarre fashion, argue successfully for the efficacy of the nic in ANY way? Was it not the purpose of alpa/arbitration/nic/etc to actually combine these lists in some workable fashion?. How's that been going so far? Does not a full scale rebellion from one side and a complete failure to swuccessfully combine the two groups prove at all indicative of even some slight failings witin the sublime perfection of ideology and functionality that was alpa-nic?

"The west pilots did not create the seniority list, ..." Understood. The west is entirely innocent here. You "didn't know it was loaded" and were/are "just cleaning it when it off" then. You hold zero personal responsibility at any level (but never fail to assign such notions to every east pilot)...and instead, are only desperately trying to shove this obviously unworkable, strife-ridden, "All Out Warfare" initiating, "Fair and Equitable" device down the throats of the east...and apparently wondering...as did the great prophet Rodney King..."Why can't we all jess' get along?"

 

[EastUS]

You didn't have to give your word to support the ALPA merger policy or to agree to binding arbitration.

You were hired on at US Airways as a pilot. As a condition of that employment you agreed, explicitly or implicitly, to let a union represent you as an agent on all matters of employment. Your agent, who has full legal authority to act on your behalf, developed a seniority integration policy......

Your agent’s word was legally your word because you appointed them to represent you.

Personal integrity on your part could be demonstrated by actively seeking to have your agent implement the award because your agent agreed to it and it has continuously failed in that regard.

1) Leme' see if I have this right? = We can at last agree that I gave no personal word of mine?

2) That current agent, as conditions exist, has indeed developed a seniority integration policy. The very same agent that you make a point of having "full legal authority to act on your own behalf" would be USAPA.

3) Ah!...It logically and necesarilly follows that "Your agent"/USAPA is now legally "your word"? :blink: Strange thing though....you seem to experience some difficulties with employing your very own reasoning......

4) I'm actively seeking "to have your agent implement" said agent's seniority policy. It then seems reasonable that "Personal integrity on your part could be demonstrated" by doing the same. What's your point here?

 

[cleardirect]

The east pilots have the numbers, it really is that simple.

That is the "tude" that found USAPA liable for DFR.

Being the majority does not give you license to do what you want.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

That is the "tude" that found USAPA liable for DFR.

Being the majority does not give you license to do what you want.

Exactly. The numbers, and the single unit status granted by the NMB, give the east the ability to hold us all up for an indertiminate amount of time, while they attempt to weasel out of their end of the bargain. As you say, it does not give them license to just as they want, as they are finding out, to their chagrin.

However, they had the numbers to ensure we all suffer while they try. That's what I was referring to.

 

[RSVP767]

So now Nicolau is immoral and insane. The west pilots did not create the seniority list, unlike the east pilots and your DOH, Nicolau did. So when you say things like immoral or insane you are implying that the creator is those things.

Now let’s look at the definition of moral.

See, here's the thing......with DOH you don't need to CREATE a seniority list. It is a natural result of DOH.

Now, let's look at the definition of SENIORITY. :unsure:

sen·ior·i·ty (sn-yôr-t, -yr-)
n.
1. The state of being older than another or others or higher in rank than another or others.
2. Precedence of position, especially precedence over others of the same rank by reason of a longer span of service.

So yes, one might argue the man was insane,

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Hey East! What part of "binding" do you not get?

I spent the day with labor law attorneys, every one of them were amazed at the arrogance of the east in creating USAPA to get out of their binding arbitration.

You agreed, west agreed, company agreed. East reneged.

Sorry, you can't do that.

 

[fatherabraham]

Tell that to the guys who have been laid off and the whole West pilot bunch who have not had their contract negotiated. In other words I disagree.

hp_fa,
Ok , I will say it again ...."You HAD everything to gain and nothing to lose"

The East proposal with all the protections for the West junior would have meant they would be currently working. So place the blame where it belongs. GREED GREED GREED
FA

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Hey East! What part of "binding" do you not get?

I spent the day with labor law attorneys, every one of them were amazed at the arrogance of the east in creating USAPA to get out of their binding arbitration.

You agreed, west agreed, company agreed. East reneged.

Sorry, you can't do that.

Man, if that's the kind of things you talk about with your friends, I wouldn't be looking for many invitations.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Man, if that's the kind of things you talk about with your friends, I wouldn't be looking for many invitations.

It was a law conference with a focus on Labor Law.

We talked about Labor Law and recent cases.

Over your head.


(lots of good stuff about how union membership in this country keeps going down!)

 

[BoeingBoy]

sen·ior·i·ty (sn-yôr-t, -yr-)
n.
1. The state of being older than another or others or higher in rank than another or others.
2. Precedence of position, especially precedence over others of the same rank by reason of a longer span of service.

So seniority can mean "higher in rank" or "precedance of position". That makes a widebody captain senior to a narrow body captain, a captain senior to a F/O, a working F/O senior to a non-working F/O. Sounds like the Nic to me...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

.. Perhaps I've just missed the true and subtle genius of it all, but, even a casual glance can offer to even any bystander the valid observation that it's produced almost unimaginable levels of labor group disunity and completely failed in it's intended purpose. Would you argue otherwise?

I disagree completely. The ALPA constitution (and to some degree those who lacked the fortitude to mitigate its shortcomings) were entirely the disease at fault. Nic was merely a symptom.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Funny, I didn't hear any of this talk of shortcomings, symptoms, and diseases when the east was just assuming they were going to get their way.

You're not fooling anyone but yourselves as to why this has degenerated into what it has.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

It was a law conference with a focus on Labor Law.

We talked about Labor Law and recent cases.

Over your head.


(lots of good stuff about how union membership in this country keeps going down!)

Since ALPA's own attorneys disagree with you, I would conclude that your friends just agreed with you to end the conversation.

The reason for decreasing union membership is because unions, like ALPA, continue to have unworkable policies like ALPA's merger "nonpolicy".

As for the over my head part, I seriously doubt it.

Maybe there's a reason that Lawyers have such a great reputation. I even recently drove by an establishment with a sign posted out front "No Lawyers Allowed". In my opinion they had a great business plan!

 

[HPDriver]

I disagree completely. The ALPA constitution (and to some degree those who lacked the fortitude to mitigate its shortcomings) were entirely the disease at fault. Nic was merely a symptom.

Only disease here is the east and its entitlement attitude.

Nic is merely the cure.

 

[hp_fa]

hp_fa,
Ok , I will say it again ...."You HAD everything to gain and nothing to lose"

I will join you in saying again....

The West pilots are. and were, eligible for Section 6 negotiations under their contract well before the East's contract became amenable on 1/1/10. They are not subject to LOA 93, 84 or anything else that the East pilots are subject to under the AAA agreements and the modifications to any such agreements made by any bankruptcy judge. So the West has been losing simply by not having their contract renegotiated during the time that the AAA contract was not amenable.

What have the furloughed AWA pilots gained since the merger announcement in May 2005? A quick refresher would show that at the time of the merger announcement a new hire class actually was in training and another class had been selected and established, but was terminated do to the merger. When was the last time, prior to the merger announcement, that US Airways had a new hire class for pilots?