US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[jetjok1]

Well I guess that someone has been reading. Sounds like at least a few of the east pilots are slowly beginning to come to the realization that the Nicolau could become reality.

So now the fear and threats begin. A little transparent I am afraid.

Are we now going to hear about all of the “super-senior†east pilots that are going to come flooding out west to take the good flying from us poor west pilots? What happened to the mantra we just want what we had? We don’t want to take your jobs. Nobody wants to go west and take anything from you.

How many times did we hear that the west coast commuters were flying international wide bodies so they will not give that up. If these super horsepower bidders are so senior and the wide body flying is the end all, be all of premier flying. Why would they leave all of that to come to little old PHX and fly such a pedestrian airplane like a narrow body from PHX to LAX?

Besides we accept that there will be some movement once the list is merge red. That is what happens. If we can accept new people coming into our bases why can’t the east? Plus there has to be a vacancy before anyone can move into the base. We have two vacancy bids in the last year. The latest one was a downgrade bid. It could be a long time before anyone gets to move to PHX for our “good†trips.


Cleared,


Just a comment that might be shared by others. I've lived on the West Coast all my life. I would come west to shorten the commute. I don't care about what kind of flying it is. I've done both. It doesn't matter. I've got a lot of "westie" friends. they're all good guys. Most everyone I've met out west- I would have no problem flying with. That's the way I see it.

Anyway I thought that all of the “good flying†was off the east coast.

If ALPA were still on the property you say 50% would have quit. If the Nicolau is implemented by the court will 50 % of the F/O’s quit? Better warn them against that. Section 29 appears in the east contract also.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

You appear to be the most intelligent one from your side as you try to debate rather than discredit. I imagine if I were in your shoes I too would feel the sting. Seems to me this situation has come about because we cant imagine what our views would be if we switched costumes. As a west Capt. I think that prior to the Nic, if we were proposed with having east heavies fenced until there are no more east to fly them, new heavies open to bid, east attrition protected for east pilots say 80%, or 90%, including a DOH bidding for east domiciles and relative bid for west domiciles, the west pilots would have concluded it to be a reasonable accomadation to this situation.

Reasonable adults can easily come up with reasonable solutions to seemingly difficult or insurmountable problems. Somehow that is not our reality. It is now difficult for me to envision a merged list ever happening. It is also becoming more difficult to envision this company being around in 12-18 months. I have often wondered if we all would not be better off if we liquidated. I think all of the East FO's would be far better off if the company liquidated 5 years ago. Many would be Captains at Continental, Jet Blue,Southwest etc.. and have much better seniority (by giving up AAA DOH) and prospects. I am considering myself to now be dragged into that sceanrio.

Good Luck to everyone!

73320,

I think our side screwed this up from the start, but not for the reason many west guys think. I don't think the east position came from wanting all, or using the west guys to recover what we lost, but to hang on to what little we had left. (Most of us anyway, there will always be those that think they deserve everything) After years of contract lose and stagnation, it seemed that the attrition was going to kick, then Nic gave that to the west. But you're right; when you just look at your side you don't see the whole picture. AWA brought their toys to the party too, their careers were just as important as our, they lived with sub-standard contracts just like us.

I truly believe that the root of the problem was ALPA's merger policy. The policy was an ever-evolving set of guidelines that were change depending on what group was on the panel. The people that were writing the policy were not unaffected by it, so their biases came into play. So, what you had is a policy that kind of put the merger committees in a place to shoot for the moon. From US Air's previous mergers the attitude became that this will go to an arbitrator anyway, so why bother? Big mistake. It think we can see for DAL/NWA that they learned from our mistake.

I too have wondered if we would have been better off shutting down. At the time I was looking for other jobs and had a line on a few. When the merger was announced I thought that Doug really wanted to run an airline and seemed to be respected by the industry. Now 4 years latter we have a bigger mess and the company is still on the edge. I see no solution to the pilot mess. As Piney said, it looks like WWI, trenches dug and a fight to the death. Is there a USA out there that can enter the fight and change things? Is Judge Wake the US Army? Is Doug? I have no idea.

I wonder if our entire country has lost the ability to compromise. Our fight seems to mirror so many others.

Take care and good luck to you too

 

[cleardirect]

Jetjok,

I agree. We have a few commuters from the east coast. Shortening their commute would be the reason to bid another base. Not just to go chase the next airplane. I do not get some of the east mentality that for some reason us west pilots are eager to uproot the family and throw ourselves into the mess that is east coast flying and the weather that goes with it.


That is one of the reasons that the west is opposed to fences. A merger happened. Some try to deign that it did. But that is the situation. Eternal separate ops or long fences locking one side in or out of “ourâ€￾ bases does not complete the merger. There will be movement. I personally would not ever want to go to the east coast. But there are some that do. Just like yourself that want to bid west. There is no reason to refuse to let someone do that.

Isn’t that what USAPA has been preaching. Being a good union pilot? Think about what is good for your brother and sister pilot. Allowing cross base bidding is good for everyone.

 

[Pi brat]

Sorry Pi - I didn't see this post until after it was quoted by someone else. For some reason when I make a post, the little icon that takes one to new posts in the tread skips those posted while I was typing up a reply/post and goes directly to the next post after mine.



First, you've got to remember the date that Nic was charged with using for merging the lists. Go back to that date and see how much your position differed from that West pilot.

Jim,

I can't find the old bids so I may be wrong, but I don't believe we have that many more captain positions now that we did in 04, and many that we have are EMB. I will try to see how many A330, 757, 767, A320 and 737 captains we had to see how much of an affect the ATA planes made, but I don't think it was much. At the time of the merger I was a very junior A320 F/O in CLT, I could not hold a captain's bid. My bid mostly came from guys retiring before the age 60 rule changed. Maybe you have the bid from May of 04 and can prove me wrong.


"It may have been on the wall, but it was awfully faint and smeared. Nobody could say "On this date the retirement age will change."


I think it was clear enough to know it was coming, but that is an opinion, even if I was right!



"My reasoning is simple and I've expressed it several times - if you could put the integrated list into effect on the date it was designed for (ALPA's PID, in the case of Nic) and let everyone bid anywhere their new seniority number would allow (a system flush, in other words), nearly everyone would be doing the same thing as the day before - no one gains and no one loses except those that desire the new bases the merger made available to them. Those that saw a slight difference would be those on the edge, so to speak - on the edge of holding bigger equipment, on the edge of being bumped to smaller equipment, on the edge of holding Captain, on the edge of losing Captain. You'd probably see no more difference than you currently see between East bases - able to hold Capt in LGA but not CLT, able to hold blockholder in DCA but not PHL, etc. What you wouldn't have is junior F/O's (or even furloughed non-MDA pilots) suddenly senior to Captains from the other side or vice versa, like you do with a DOH list."

But Jim you would see a huge difference going forward. I know that career expectations aren't worth much, but you can tell what someone couldn't reasonably expect. A west guys slotted in front of me couldn't have expected to be a captain in CLT in a year or two. That's my whole problem with the Nic award, no fences to allow the list to settle in and ease the transition. With you scenario the guy that had been waiting to check in CLT would have someone younger and senior to him take his seat, forever!

"The whole "DOH = seniority" thing is silly to me and for the life of me I can't understand how any East pilot could put forward that idea. Just look at the seniority ups and downs experienced by East pilots the years while the amount of time lapsed since DOH only moved in one direction - increasing every day. How anybody can say that a constantly increasing value - time since hired - can equate seniority which varies both up and down is beyond my comprehension except for one factor...it favors those that have been around the longest and progressed the least for that time spent over those who haven't been around as long and progressed faster. What it says to me is "You young punks (to borrow from EastUS) don't deserve what you've gotten so we'll take it away and give it to those on our side who are more entitled to it."


I don't know if I have made this clear, but I completely agree with you on this. DOH means nothing towards seniority. If we continued to shrink and were left with two pilots when I turn 65, I would still be in the bottom 50%. I never thought we should have tried DOH. Any system could be used to make a (mostly)fair list if the C&R are right, but that is very hard to do and the huge difference in seniority with this group made it even harder. You point that USAPAs C&Rs don't make a difference when the guy actually get to PHX is well taken, but neither does the Nic award. But, just because you are right about that doesn't make Nic right. He used every method in the book and gave no one except the top 517 any protections. He just threw us all in the pit and said fight it out. I think it was stupid and we are paying the price.

 

[Pi brat]

I think the reality is that we are all just wasting bandwidth here anyway. Why make the effort? We've rehashed EVERYTHING a gazillion times; no one has changed their opinion; now the federal courts have control of the situation; no one, including real and self-imagined lawyers who post here, knows how things will play out.

Both sides are paying lawyers a lot of money to litigate these cases. I doubt they come to the USAviation.com message boards for ideas.

Why bother, people? Why not just let this thing play out? All our posturing, pontificating and bluster is wasted effort.

You're just now figuring this out?

 

[Phoenix]

...He just threw us all in the pit and said fight it out. I think it was stupid and we are paying the price.

You have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps ALPA should replace the term "seniority" with "pecking order*".

The dictate that seniority shall be determined by adversaries is incompatible with the notion of a "fraternal union" that describes itself as "representative", "national", and "protector of the profession".

Since pilots have specialized and technical skills and knowledge, piloting aircraft would generally be regarded as a profession. However, if the definition of "seniority" is disallowed from acknowledging the number of times said pilots have successfully passed the yearly battery of tests and evaluations inherent to the profession, then such defined "seniority" is at odds with the very notion of "profession".

"Pecking order" is a much more accurate description of the barnyard policy/guidelines.



*Pecking order -- a hierarchical system of social organization among animals.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But Jim you would see a huge difference going forward. I know that career expectations aren't worth much, but you can tell what someone couldn't reasonably expect. A west guys slotted in front of me couldn't have expected to be a captain in CLT in a year or two. That's my whole problem with the Nic award, no fences to allow the list to settle in and ease the transition. With you scenario the guy that had been waiting to check in CLT would have someone younger and senior to him take his seat, forever!

This complaint is what I have never been able to understand, and you're certainly not the only one to express it. No matter which side you're from, if you're (generic, not you personally) not one of the 517 you can point to someone from the other side ahead of you that'll "be there forever" and who can bid what you want before you. Likewise, the West folks can do the same - "but there's that Eastie that'll be ahead of me forever."

You're correct that the West folks had no expectation of bidding CLT (PHL/DCA/etc) before the merger was announced, but East guys had no expectation of bidding PHL/LAS either. So those interested in flying from the other side's bases will be able to. I have no idea which side would have more pilots that bid to the other side, but movement will occur both ways.

If I remember correctly, there's no place on the Nic list where there's more than a few from one side or the other in a row (except the 517 and furloughed at the bottom). So if you want CLT, there'll be no more than a few West pilots between you and the East pilot senior to you. If they ALL bid what you're waiting to bid, it'll take you longer to get there, but if none of them want it you'll see no difference. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

In exchange for having the West pilots scattered throughout the list ahead of you (and behind you), you have the benefit of West attrition - there'll be more attrition than East brought to the table. Likewise, there are more jobs - those brought by the West - that will need filling as attrition occurs. Will everything work out for you (or any other pilot) exactly as it would have had there been no merger? Probably not, but you wouldn't see massive West upward movement while East stagnates nor massive East movement while West stagnates.

FYI

May 2004 - 1495 East Capt slots
Feb 2009 - 1229 East Capt slots (incl 126 E190 Capt)

So East didn't increase the total number of Captain slots with the ex-ATA 757's, etc, but would have less Captain slots now without those additional planes.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

I truly believe that the root of the problem was ALPA's merger policy. The policy was an ever-evolving set of guidelines that were change depending on what group was on the panel. The people that were writing the policy were not unaffected by it, so their biases came into play.

Please explain to me the "bias" in ALPA Merger Policy of negotiate, mediate, arbitrate. I think the only bias is you and your brethren didn't get what you wanted.

 

[Pi brat]

Please explain to me the "bias" in ALPA Merger Policy of negotiate, mediate, arbitrate. I think the only bias is you and your brethren didn't get what you wanted.

I was talking about the guidelines. Not all pilots can be unbiased when they do ALPA work. It's just human nature to make policy to help yourself or your group. When I attended the ALPA ACPC meeting I was told, by ALPA national types that the merger policy had been changed X number of times. One of those times was when DOH was removed as a consideration. That has been blamed on UA, but it was done by a committee, and I believe there was an AAA member on the committee.

Although I don't think DOH is the only way to merge a list, I think the amount of time served should be a consideration.

 

[Pi brat]

This complaint is what I have never been able to understand, and you're certainly not the only one to express it. No matter which side you're from, if you're (generic, not you personally) not one of the 517 you can point to someone from the other side ahead of you that'll "be there forever" and who can bid what you want before you. Likewise, the West folks can do the same - "but there's that Eastie that'll be ahead of me forever."

You're correct that the West folks had no expectation of bidding CLT (PHL/DCA/etc) before the merger was announced, but East guys had no expectation of bidding PHL/LAS either. So those interested in flying from the other side's bases will be able to. I have no idea which side would have more pilots that bid to the other side, but movement will occur both ways.

If I remember correctly, there's no place on the Nic list where there's more than a few from one side or the other in a row (except the 517 and furloughed at the bottom). So if you want CLT, there'll be no more than a few West pilots between you and the East pilot senior to you. If they ALL bid what you're waiting to bid, it'll take you longer to get there, but if none of them want it you'll see no difference. Reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

In exchange for having the West pilots scattered throughout the list ahead of you (and behind you), you have the benefit of West attrition - there'll be more attrition than East brought to the table. Likewise, there are more jobs - those brought by the West - that will need filling as attrition occurs. Will everything work out for you (or any other pilot) exactly as it would have had there been no merger? Probably not, but you wouldn't see massive West upward movement while East stagnates nor massive East movement while West stagnates.

FYI

May 2004 - 1495 East Capt slots
Feb 2009 - 1229 East Capt slots (incl 126 E190 Capt)

So East didn't increase the total number of Captain slots with the ex-ATA 757's, etc, but would have less Captain slots now without those additional planes.

Jim

Thanks for the numbers Jim, the west guys might believe it coming from you. They would have told me my upgrade was on their backs. So we now have 392 less 737 and greater captain seats than we did in 2004, I was an A320 F/O then and a A320 captain now, in my original base. So, I upgraded because of east attrition, not that supposed growth. Had the Nic award been in place during the last west cut back, I'm sure a west pilot would have my seat. Anybody our west have your numbers for the same time period?

You are right about the progression of list and jobs, but we know that some jobs are more valuable to some than others. Time has proven that money is the most valuable motivator in the pilot business, so the widebody jobs are usually premium. In our history, we have seen that CLT is the most valuable base to most pilots. Being the southern pilot I am, CLT widebody captain is the most valuable position, and Nic gave about 1000 pilots the right to that before me.

Jim, your prospective would probably be different if you had spent 20+ years in the right seat and then had someone give the right to the left to someone else. Or maybe not. I know you have been accused of being a ALPOID on here, but I remember you taking on some MEC members on the old ALPA board. Maybe you just like to argue.

 

[cleardirect]

If they are available it would be interesting to see the numbers from multiple years.

2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007

I think that it would be more enlightening to see the trend then just two points in time.

How many captains after 9/11, how many during bankruptcy I and bankruptcy II. Just prior to the merger and the trend after the merger.

 

[73320]

73320,

I think our side screwed this up from the start, but not for the reason many west guys think. I don't think the east position came from wanting all, or using the west guys to recover what we lost, but to hang on to what little we had left. (Most of us anyway, there will always be those that think they deserve everything) After years of contract lose and stagnation, it seemed that the attrition was going to kick, then Nic gave that to the west. But you're right; when you just look at your side you don't see the whole picture. AWA brought their toys to the party too, their careers were just as important as our, they lived with sub-standard contracts just like us.

Pi,

I disagree wholehartedly on ALPA being the problem. The problem is losing money and jobs and continual sliding backwards. Nothing good ever comes from downsizing. ALPA I am sure was great at parity plus 1. The west was slowly moving forward with no furloughs at the time of the merger. I never expected to be flying east planes and east bases, you should have been able to reasonably protect most of that flying. Despite the rhetoric from my colleagues on here, most of us could care less. The main point we wanted is the ability to continue to move forward and the NIC relative position furlough protection. You should have been able to protect the rest as I outlined earlier.

Whatever the NIC means to you, multiply it times 10 and you can imagine wearing a west costume. The NIC was a third party decision, USAPA is a force majeur staple from our colleagues. I too doubt that we will integrate or survive. Perhaps the NIC with protections for the east as mentioned earlier might be progress.

Good Luck!

 

[BoeingBoy]

So we now have 392 less 737 and greater captain seats than we did in 2004, I was an A320 F/O then and a A320 captain now, in my original base. So, I upgraded because of east attrition, not that supposed growth. Had the Nic award been in place during the last west cut back, I'm sure a west pilot would have my seat. Anybody our west have your numbers for the same time period?

Without the ex-ATA aircraft, and to a small degree the conversion of East 757's to ETOPs, there would be even fewer 737 and up captain seats on the East side than currently exist. It's impossible to add aircraft, even to a shrinking fleet, without adding jobs to fly those aircraft - even if the added jobs merely slow the reduction in jobs. Take away the ex-ATA 737's and you'd have something like 370 or less 737 or better jobs today. So you can't say that additional aircraft don't create captain jobs (or F/O for that matter) - it's an impossibility unless the airline is overstaffed with captains enough to just absorb those jobs, and the overstaffing means more captain jobs than there should be to start with.

Would that have made the difference between you checking out or not? I have no idea. Would the Nic list being in effect have made the difference? Again, no idea. Both depend more on how the pilots above you bid than there being more pilots above you. Perhaps some of those East pilots above you would have bid PHX/LAS instead of CLT AB captain, letting you get it quicker. Perhaps West pilots would have bid CLT AB captain, making you wait longer. How it all shook out for you (or any other individual) is anybodies guess at this point.

Jim

 

[73320]

Thanks for the numbers Jim, the west guys might believe it coming from you. They would have told me my upgrade was on their backs. So we now have 392 less 737 and greater captain seats than we did in 2004, I was an A320 F/O then and a A320 captain now, in my original base. So, I upgraded because of east attrition, not that supposed growth. Had the Nic award been in place during the last west cut back, I'm sure a west pilot would have my seat. Anybody our west have your numbers for the same time period?

The five percent club might think so, but the rest of us would not. Reasonable people reasonable solutions. If the east attrition is the only movement is it reasonable or not that the west should have access? If so how much? For me pre NIC I would say 10-20% negotiable plus DOH bidding in east bases. Post NIC I would say the same but my comrades likely would not after what has transpired. The NIC's main flaw is in the reality of implementation. I could not expect to fly with a 20+ year FO in East planes/bases and think it would be good. A USAPA DOH cram down with an EAST pilot coming west would be 10 times more unimaginable. I am sure few westies know Jim, and I have never heard mention of him in the locker room. He is reasonable and has credibility, even from you, and you assuming from us as well. I imagine all this could have easily been prevented with reasonable reality based views, and looking at the big picture. God forbid we act as our brothers keeper and look out for the other side as well. Congatulations on the upgrade!

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

I disagree wholehartedly on ALPA being the problem. The problem is losing money and jobs and continual sliding backwards. Nothing good ever comes from downsizing. ALPA I am sure was great at parity plus 1. The west was slowly moving forward with no furloughs at the time of the merger. I never expected to be flying east planes and east bases, you should have been able to reasonably protect most of that flying. Despite the rhetoric from my colleagues on here, most of us could care less. The main point we wanted is the ability to continue to move forward and the NIC relative position furlough protection. You should have been able to protect the rest as I outlined earlier.

Whatever the NIC means to you, multiply it times 10 and you can imagine wearing a west costume. The NIC was a third party decision, USAPA is a force majeur staple from our colleagues. I too doubt that we will integrate or survive. Perhaps the NIC with protections for the east as mentioned earlier might be progress.

Good Luck!

You certainly have the right to disagree about ALPA, but that's the way I see it, and I went to great lengths to listen to all sides before the election. ALPA got much more of my time than USAPA did, and I wasn't one of the guys that blamed ALPA national for all our ills.

You are right, losing money and jobs is bad, but it's not the pilot's fault, as you see now, and when AWA was doing the same. US Airways brought a lot of value to this merger, as we are seeing now.

Parity +1 was meant to be a concessionary contract. It was only because Wolf conned UA into merging, and that put the UA pilots in the drivers seat with their contract. If you ever spent any time around Rakesh Gangwal, you would know he wasn't interested in our benefit.

I have tried to put myself in your shoes and I can say that if I was, I would feel the same way towards USAPA. I don't think I would be saying what a great job Nicolau did, but I would be supporting USAPA. I understand that.

You know, if it had been left up to great guys like us, when could have fixed this thing right up, lol.