US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[Pi brat]

Without the ex-ATA aircraft, and to a small degree the conversion of East 757's to ETOPs, there would be even fewer 737 and up captain seats on the East side than currently exist. It's impossible to add aircraft, even to a shrinking fleet, without adding jobs to fly those aircraft - even if the added jobs merely slow the reduction in jobs. Take away the ex-ATA 737's and you'd have something like 370 or less 737 or better jobs today. So you can't say that additional aircraft don't create captain jobs (or F/O for that matter) - it's an impossibility unless the airline is overstaffed with captains enough to just absorb those jobs, and the overstaffing means more captain jobs than there should be to start with.

Would that have made the difference between you checking out or not? I have no idea. Would the Nic list being in effect have made the difference? Again, no idea. Both depend more on how the pilots above you bid than there being more pilots above you. Perhaps some of those East pilots above you would have bid PHX/LAS instead of CLT AB captain, letting you get it quicker. Perhaps West pilots would have bid CLT AB captain, making you wait longer. How it all shook out for you (or any other individual) is anybodies guess at this point.

Jim

Of course the ATA planes helped, I never said they didn't. What I said was that even with those new aircraft we have fewer total captain than we did in '04, so I couldn't have checked out without our attrition. It's pretty clear how things turned out. Those guys slotted into my class are even farther away from captain in PHX and LAS.

 

[Pi brat]

The five percent club might think so, but the rest of us would not.

I think that applies to both sides. There are guys on the east that think they deserve everything east and west, but no more than 6%!

Thanks for the congrats, I truly hope that they resume on the west. I don't think I will be holding on to mine much long though.

 

[Pi brat]

You have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps ALPA should replace the term "seniority" with "pecking order*".

The dictate that seniority shall be determined by adversaries is incompatible with the notion of a "fraternal union" that describes itself as "representative", "national", and "protector of the profession".

Since pilots have specialized and technical skills and knowledge, piloting aircraft would generally be regarded as a profession. However, if the definition of "seniority" is disallowed from acknowledging the number of times said pilots have successfully passed the yearly battery of tests and evaluations inherent to the profession, then such defined "seniority" is at odds with the very notion of "profession".

"Pecking order" is a much more accurate description of the barnyard policy/guidelines.



*Pecking order -- a hierarchical system of social organization among animals.

/quote]

Have you read Judge Wake's ruling? He speaks about a union's responsibility to the minority. I thought about that and ALPA merger policy. Maybe they should direct the arbitrator to not use the companies financial condition as a factor in his decision, since the pilot's have no control on that.

 

[nostradamus]

73320 west pilot quote about the east. 73320 mentioned this in two posts #329 and 349

"Reasonable people reasonable solutions."
[/quote]above

For the former west pilots resonable solution, click here.

This suit is still active.

 

[BoeingBoy]

so I couldn't have checked out without our attrition.

Or, depending on how close to the bottom you are on the AB in CLT, you wouldn't have without those 3 ex-ATA airplanes. What it amounts to is that both the attrition and the additional planes (above how many there would have been otherwise) put you in the left seat.

Those guys slotted into my class are even farther away from captain in PHX and LAS.

That's partly because PHX/LAS didn't get any additional airplanes - they've just lost airplanes I think - and less attrition. I can't say which had a bigger effect.

Don't know if it'll mean anything to anybody, but here's the bid by bid number of captain jobs in the East. Any bids that covered more than one month, I just listed the final month.

May 2004 - 1495
Jul 2004 - 1491
Aug 2004 - 1473
Oct 2004 - 1458
Nov 2004 - 1452
Feb 2005 - 1388
Jun 2005 - 1331
Aug 2005 - 1260
Dec 2005 - 1212
Feb 2006 - 1175
Jun 2006 - 1165
Aug 2006 - 1155
Dec 2006 - 1139 (incl 10 E190 capt)
Jan 2007 - 1143 (incl 12 E190 capt)*
Feb 2007 - 1144 (incl 14 E190 capt)
May 2007 - 1136 (incl 19 E190 capt)
Jan 2007 - 1139 (incl 10 E190 capt)
Feb 2007 - 1144 (incl 14 E190 capt)
May 2007 - 1184 (incl 19 E190 capt)
Jul 2007 - 1216 (incl 36 E190 capt)
Dec 2007 - 1253 (incl 64 E190 capt)
Feb 2008 - 1273 (incl 66 E190 capt)
Apr 2008 - 1340 (incl 108 E190 capt)
Jul 2008 - 1340 (incl 123 E190 capt)
Oct 2008 - 1262 (incl 130 E190 capt)**
Feb 2009 - 1229 (incl 126 E190 capt)

* 1st bid w/recalls
** 1st bid w/furloughs

The ex-ATA 757's were staffed in the June 2006 bid - you can subract 20-25 captain jobs starting there is get an idea of the number of captain jobs if those airplanes didn't exist.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

the number of times said pilots have successfully passed the yearly battery of tests and evaluations inherent to the profession, .

There is a definition for the this. It's longevity.

If my coworkers on the east would acknowledge the difference between longevity and seniority we might get somewhere.

 

[nostradamus]

traderjake quote
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Posted on: Oct 7 2004, 12:24


trader your quote below. What do you stand for, you?


traderjake quote below

"I did accept the job under those conditions and I'm not complaining. I stating a fact. The A scale pilots who came before me stabed me in the back. I'm not falling on the sword for them, at this or any other airline.

You better learn to accept the job under these conditions. Unless you can convince the guy on the street not to work for Airtran, America West, etc., voting no just make us unemployed. It will not prevent paycuts at this or any other airline."
Forum: US Airways · Post Preview: #188844 · Replies: 198 · Views: 9,825

 

[Metroyet]

73320 west pilot quote about the east. 73320 mentioned this in two posts #329 and 349

"Reasonable people reasonable solutions."
above

For the former west pilots resonable solution, click here.

This suit is still active.

Keep payin' those dues. If this is what you think is a wise allocation of Union Funds than I guess you get what you deserve...LOA93 in perpetuity.

 

[cleardirect]

73320 west pilot quote about the east. 73320 mentioned this in two posts #329 and 349

"Reasonable people reasonable solutions."
above

For the former west pilots resonable solution, click here.

This suit is still active.

Nos,

Not sure what you are trying to get to. This was a restraining order asked for by USAPA. A discredited suit that has been “DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICEâ€. What do you mean by “reasonable solutionâ€?

Just continuing to make false allegations repeatedly does not make them true. No matter how much you wish it were.

To remind everyone what USAPA wanted restrained and from who.

3. From denying, conspiring to deny, or instigating denial of, access to “jump seats†on aircraft operated by any commercial carrier because of suspected membership in, or support of, USAPA, or status as an “East pilot,†or because of any pretextual excuse to hide such anti-USAPA animus, or animus against East pilots.

Exact quote from the (proposed) restraining order. USAPA wanted to tell every “commercial carrier†captain that his jump seat was not under his captains authority. They wanted a federal judge to impose USAPA’s will on the entire airline industry. Talk about delusion of grandeur. Imagine a Delta, United or American captain denies a USAPA jump seater and that same jump seater whips out a federal order and tells said captain that by golly east pilots are special. That this USAPA supporter will in deed be riding in his cockpit because a judge said so.

 

[traderjake]

traderjake quote

You better learn to accept the job under these conditions. Unless you can convince the guy on the street not to work for Airtran, America West, etc., voting no just make us unemployed. It will not prevent paycuts at this or any other airline."
Forum: US Airways · Post Preview: #188844 · Replies: 198 · Views: 9,825

What is your point or is this part of your continuing obsession with me?

I was not going on strike when we were in bankruptcy and if USAPA strikes over a DOH contract they are doing it without me and 40% of this pilot group.

You want to "be a good union pilot" and follow the other lemmings over the cliff, be my guest.

 

[Phoenix]

Have you read Judge Wake's ruling? He speaks about a union's responsibility to the minority. I thought about that and ALPA merger policy. Maybe they should direct the arbitrator to not use the companies financial condition as a factor in his decision, since the pilot's have no control on that.

Yeah, read it. My money says he voted for Obama.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Yeah, read it. My money says he voted for Obama.

Thereby solidifying my belief that the most corrupt of politicians are Republican... :mf_boff:

 

[Phoenix]

There is a definition for the this. It's longevity.

If my coworkers on the east would acknowledge the difference between longevity and seniority we might get somewhere.

Call it whatever you want to. The issue is whether or not a pilot should be compensated for success at it. At which time a pilot ceases to be compensated for it then he is no longer an acknowledged member of a profession. He is standing in a soup kitchen line hoping his line gives out more chunks of chicken than the line next to him. god forbid his line runs out of soup or he will have to start over.

Ask a TWA pilot about the acknowledgment he has received as a card carrying member of the "profession".

 

[Phoenix]

Thereby solidifying my belief that the most corrupt of politicians are Republican... :mf_boff:

I am neither republican or a politician..

but I am looking forward to my gas and my mortgage being taken care of. When does that program start?

 

[Tiger 1050]

I am neither republican or a politician..

but I am looking forward to my gas and my mortgage being taken care of. When does that program start?

These new government subsidies will be given in reverse seniority order. Please be patient!
:bleh: