IAM FILES AT DELTA FOR UNION REPRESENTATION

[galleyguy4u2]

Much like yourself making no sense? I can put myself in the shoes of others and know what I would be willing to except and not except. You think it's fair to give newly hired people seniority rights from the former airline, LOL! That makes SENSE? Sure, only if YOU are not affected.


You seem to have trouble understanding who promised what. Not one single union made a promise they couldn't keep or wouldn't offer. APFA NEVER offered the new hires seniority and never would and rightfully so. The IAM, who repped the failed airlines employees had no real say in anything.

So it makes complete sense, you have a failed airline with no future and a airline with money that can and did do what it pleased. Makes perfect sense to me and is completely fair on ANY GIVEN DAY. Hopefully this makes full and complete sense to you, since you seem to be having trouble who did what, and who promised what.

Excuse me, we gave Ozark airlines doh. And also AA/APFA granted DOH to other aquired airlnes with the exception of Reno which was not Union.

 

[galleyguy4u2]

The Pan Am f/a's that had to interview for their job did get some seniority. I don't remember the ratio. Also, AFA has a no staple policy.

Don't bother arguing with Hot. Waste of typing because she/he does NOT have the facts straight.

Dignity, your posts are accurate and right on point.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

well! I think it makes some sense!


so with that line, we as pre-merger deserve zero credit for all our years of service as Flight Attendant, even though were not required to apply for the same job?


not really, I just see it differently from you and you might want to review the hearings regarding who said what prior to the approval.. regarding the Justice Department and it how it was labeled a "merger".


it makes sense to you.

NWA and DL are merging, of course you deserve your full seniority. It's two airlines bringing the best of the best to the table. As I have said again and again and what AA/TWA was labled an acquisition and therefore deserved NOTHING. I can only hope each DEPT that had a newly hired, former TWA employee placed ahead of them due to seniority from the previous airline, should of fought to have it reversed.

Any airline with nothing to bring to the table ala TWA, bought like you do a roll of paper towels, deserve nothing in return. The people of the healthy airline deserve to reap the benefits if any that would come through an asset purchase. Sadly, nothing good only debt, even another run through Chapter 11, was all that was brought on by the ACQUISITION.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

The Pan Am f/a's that had to interview for their job did get some seniority. I don't remember the ratio. Also, AFA has a no staple policy.

Don't bother arguing with Hot. Waste of typing because she/he does NOT have the facts straight.

Dignity, your posts are accurate and right on point.

PAA was a sinking ship for many years just like anyone who worked for TWA, they were taking a risk by staying at the company. When PAA closed the doors, they deserved nothing when it came to being hired on at DL. All they did was bump down Delta employees. How is that fair?

I am not arguing with anyone, simply stating facts. Of course you wouldn't agree with me, you were one of the people crying out rage. The only out rage was on your part. To think you should of been allowed to keep your full seniority and bump a few thousand of American's employees to the street. All while you and almost all of your co-workers reaped every benefit a healthy airline had to offer. Sad, very sad on your part. How the hell can you justify that? I have never spoken to a former TWA employee who can.

 

[Dignity]

DAL acquired NWA, as much as that is painful to realize..it is what it is.

we are wearing their uniforms, they are painting our aircraft to their livery, we have their service and their branding and I just learned their procedures at IQ and more at AQ later on... that is what happened, but for the sake of approval it is labeled a merger(because they took on the whole company and employees).. There is not a brand new company being formed with the two carriers and a completely different name change, it is actually DAL growing again..(like they have over many decades) into the bigger better newer version of DAL.. but because they took on the entire operation and employees its also a "merger" that is how the Justice Department is going to view it..

I see that clearly now..

same thing happened with TWA, they were acquired by AA, but it was a merger non-the less, because they took on most if not all of the company assets, their debt and their employees. because they took the airline as an entire package deal it is also a "merger", they have a responsibility to treat everyone as equals regardless of seniority.

when there is one company who retains their name and the other company is absorbed into that brand, it is an acquisition..

When one name survives regardless of what they pick up, it still an acquisition.

unless there are specifics initially that states they will only take on certain aircraft and routes while offering the employees the ability to apply for a job, then its not considered a merger for approval. it is simply an asset transfer, asset acquisition...
(and usually that happens during a liquidation or in Chapter 7 or if pieces of the company is sold off) That was not the case for TWA.

but regardless of all of that, if they actually take on employees they should be treated fairly regardless if it is one or ten thousand.

and no one deserves to lose all their seniority in these mergers/acquistions!

its sort of like this..

Airline Company A
Airline Company B

Company A will retain their name, livery, procedures
Company B full operation will be completely integrated into Company A

it is an acquisition.

when it is sent for approval it is labeled a merger because the entire operation of Company B
is being absorbed into Company A.

Airline Company C
Airline Company D

Company C will retain their name, livery, procedures
Company D will be partially integrated into Company C and transferring some jobs

it is an acquisition

Its all technically an acquisition.

 

[Dignity]

When PAA closed the doors

I believe the creditors shut down Pan Am, of course there was a process of selling off huge chunks of Pan Am with the Pacific Division to UAL and then of course the Atlantic operation to DAL in 1991.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

I don't need you to explain the difference of scenarios. I am quit capable and know them already. So save all of your typing for someone who actually needs it.

NWA and Delta agreed to merge. If NWA didn't merge with DL, they wouldn't be knocking on deaths door, such as TWA. It is two companies with much to offer each other. TWA offered nothing but a relief hub, ratty old planes and a handful of new high leased and small 717's. All broken down since then and the planes returned.

As I said before, I am glad you are for a national seniority list, but it will never happen and thank god. Just because you put in years at a company doesn't mean that should be honored at a different company.

You speak of what is fair, well a group of 20,00 flight attendants thought it was fair to bring in a group of 3-4,000 and place them below all of them. It was fair and it is fair no matter how you twist and turn it.

If it was so unfair, why did the court throw out the case? I mean seriously, they deserved nothing and got nothing. I don't find many people who will say other wise. Maybe to a former TWA person but they know they would do the samething if they were a AA employee.

Same as you would and same as I. So please save all of your save the world Michael Jackson preaching for his upcoming birthday bash.


As for the PAA people, again I don't need you to explain anything to me. I know more about it then you ever did or will. I worked with these people during my time at Delta. Nice people, still deserved nothing but to be employeed as a newly hired Delta F/A.

They worked for a completely different airline and there was no reason for a Delta employee to suffer and lose seniority, because they weren't bright enough to leave PAA as they were selling themselves off. I mean really, who would stay lol?

 

[Dignity]

Just for some additional review....

what I personally consider a "merger" and what is clearly the case for DL/NW and AA/TW but its still (technically a acquisition) would be the complete operation of one company integrated into another company..

was that the case with TWA? of course it was!

The new seniority law will make it irrelevant how it is labeled as all parties have the option to send it to arbitration resolving seniority related matters, going forward.

 

[Dignity]

unfortunately some would have continued to view others in a class system.

"your company did not make money" "your company isnt as good as ours"

"therefore you dont deserve any seniority"..

That will never happen again...

the outright denial of seniority.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Just for some additional review....

what I personally consider a "merger" and what is clearly the case for DL/NW and AA/TW but its still (technically a acquisition) would be the complete operation of one company integrated into another company..

was that the case with TWA? of course it was!

The new seniority law will make it irrelevant how it is labeled as all parties have the option to send it to arbitration resolving seniority related matters, going forward.

Glad it works out in your head, but it doesn't in anyone elses. Just because it goes to binding arbitration doesn't mean another undeserving group won't be rightfully stapled. It should be up to the aquiring airlines unions and employees. Not a third party to ruin peoples careers and dump them from there company and trips they can hold.

Amazingly the seniority case was thrown out of COURT. It goes to show what the law thought they deserved..... Amazing!

 

[galleyguy4u2]

Thank you Dignity. You get it. Unfortunately we at this time are not grandfathered into this law. The TWA f/a's were the ones to get this law passed. Perhaps Hot will appreciate this if something should happen to CO. CO is not invulnerable to a merger. This biz is still going to consolidate and stapling will not happen again. I am proud to be part of the team of f/a's that made this happen.

Again Dignity, thank you for your support and voice of reason.

 

[galleyguy4u2]

Hot, unfortunately for YOU, the law is in place. Arbitration is where seniority disputes are going to go in either acquisitions or mergers. Sorry, I was a member of the f/a class and craft with a airline that was still operating.

I missed being 50 at the time of furlough which would have given me my bridge to retirement and people who were 50 at furlough who had less years than me were able to take it. I got screwed and will not be eligible until I am recalled.

 

[Dignity]

Glad it works out in your head, but it doesn't in anyone elses. Just because it goes to binding arbitration doesn't mean another undeserving group won't be rightfully stapled. It should be up to the aquiring airlines unions and employees.

guess what?

I agree with that. I do not think the government should be interfering in seniority related matters, but you know what.. that happened because one group did not feel someone else was entitled to anything regarding their years of service for bidding purposes!

it made others so passionate about that not happening again they lobbied for a bill that became law.

maybe one day in the future, that law those courageous TWA Flight Attendants fought for will protect your career too!

it is what it is now.

this newly enacted law would have never materialized had the right thing been done in the first place.

so..

there you go.

Not a third party to ruin peoples careers and dump them from there company and trips they can hold

unfortunately we do not live in an world where a handshake and someone's word will hold up.

so yeah, sometimes laws are created to prevent unjust actions!

Amazingly the seniority case was thrown out of COURT. It goes to show what the law thought they deserved..... Amazing!

the mistake was forfeiting the LPP, one learning lesson was simply consider the consequences of forfeiting what is in writing, because sometimes it can be disastrous for a groups career.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Thank you Dignity. You get it. Unfortunately we at this time are not grandfathered into this law. The TWA f/a's were the ones to get this law passed. Perhaps Hot will appreciate this if something should happen to CO. CO is not invulnerable to a merger. This biz is still going to consolidate and stapling will not happen again. I am proud to be part of the team of f/a's that made this happen.

Again Dignity, thank you for your support and voice of reason.

See here is the difference between you and I. I know if I was a TWA F/A I would deserve nothing from American. They didn't promise me anything and in the end my airline was about to go under. I would be thankful for a job at all. I also wouldn't have waited around till the company got to that point.

If I worked for AA I would expect my union to make sure all the TWA people are stuck right under me. Who are you to think that you deserve seniority from an airline that saved you and gave you a job?

If CO went back to the late 80's and became a horrible place to work. I would leave! I wouldn't let a job dictate my LIFE and ruin me financially! You have almost 10 years! 10 YEARS to have put in toward another airline. Our 6th year pay was TWA's top pay, I have your last contract.

How dare you think it's ok, to walk from your financially ruined airline, into another and have everything and to boot! Dump their own employees on the street.

How can you justify that? You can't and I asked one of your TWA buddies on the AA forum and all she did was skirt around the question.

If UAL failed and CO bought a say the Asian division, you are damn straight that myself and almost 10,000 co-workers would fight to make sure the former UAL employees that might come over to our airline are not given anything but a new job at a new airline. Simply way around that law and I am sure we and our union would fight it tooth and nail.

It's like you think when I left DL, Continental should of honored my seniority. No thanks, but thanks for employeeing me.

 

[Dignity]

Thank you Dignity. You get it. Unfortunately we at this time are not grandfathered into this law. The TWA f/a's were the ones to get this law passed. Perhaps Hot will appreciate this if something should happen to CO. CO is not invulnerable to a merger. This biz is still going to consolidate and stapling will not happen again. I am proud to be part of the team of f/a's that made this happen.

Again Dignity, thank you for your support and voice of reason.

nothing happens in vain, many years to decades in the future that very law (that you helped pass along with your group) may just indeed protect someone career who has not even been born today.

in that regard.

TWA Flight Attendants are to be congratulated.

you are the good part of aviation history, one the future generations can look back to and be proud and possibly thankful!