IAM FILES AT DELTA FOR UNION REPRESENTATION

You and I both know that ad will be for Baggage Handlers and CSA's if you go non-union.

Yep. :down:


OH No! they best not do something as silly as that!

if that happened, a situation of union to non-union and then contracting all the former "union" to low paid "non-union"..

Well!

would validate the need to have a union in the first place!

and it would be ..

really bad P.R.!

people more than likely at that point, would realize they were lied to and those who are left would probably unionize shortly thereafter for the sake to protect what is left to protect!

(never believing one word they say, ever again!)

* it would also create unnecessary monumental labor problems.

* it would screw over the state and vital jobs for the economy.

* it would make the labor problems at NW seem like peanuts!

(the mainline employees in their current jobs need to stay in their current jobs regardless how it plays out)

Believe it!

Dignity, you don't think outsourcing everywhere save *maybe* the hubs isn't a possibility?! Where were you in '04? Did you not see the company's proposal to the IAM (grey and black books)?



I would love to rebut your assertions in this post, Tech, except that you're dead on...


Question..concerning the jobs posted for DGS. This is for NWA people. IF the union vote goes against the union what will the majority of NWA people do? Will some quit therefore leaving job openings which this may be for.This is for Dignity and Kev...you two seem to have the pulse for NWA.

My guess (and it's just that) is that most will stay. Along with that, should the IAM prevail, I would guess most anti union folks would stay as well. Both sides will probably regroup for either another card drive or a decertification vote, depending on this one's outcome.


I thought the job postings were for Cleaners so what does that have to do with NW Ground Crew stations and the combined DAL In-Flight Service Department?


Well, for starters, cleaning is covered work under the ESSC contract. Next, why offer SLIP leaves in MSP and simultaneously be hiring people for your vendor business? I thought the leadership team was working hard to bring everything in house it could, as well as "creatively addressing staffing needs?" If there's an overage, use the people you've got (NOTE: Most of the people that would be affected are on the bottom tier of the payscale).

we are wearing their uniforms

Below wing are still rollin' the NWA uniform...
 
Dignity, you don't think outsourcing everywhere save *maybe* the hubs isn't a possibility?! Where were you in '04? Did you not see the company's proposal to the IAM (grey and black books)?

I was referring to that in this comment..

"* it would screw over the state and vital jobs for the economy."

I was referring to two separate issues, the state and the economy, the economy being the whole country or basically system wide. for clarification, the "vital jobs for the economy" is simply all
the jobs in a department system wide.

as far as the "company proposal" I recall they basically wanted most all the employees jobs in most all departments eliminated (for whatever reasons)

interesting enough our proposal later on was to eliminate all the junior people jobs and I thought that was ridiculous, 4500 Flight Attendants up to year 1989.

just buy out the senior people and keep the juniors was my thinking at that time, especially since they went ahead and bought them out when all was said and done!

I believe they wanted to basically keep the jobs in the "hubs" for the ground and outsource the rest?
 
Hot, perhaps you should ask Pat Friend why AFA has a no staple policy. AFA is the largest f/a Union in case you did not know. Also you never addressed the Ozark TWA merger when Ozark got their DOH.

Keep in mind that if it were not for the TWA f/a's who pioneered, you would not have the work rules that you have today. Since ALSSA they have fought for you and me. IFFA fought to give you flight time limitations which the other airlines are now covered under as well as the weight cases.

As far as pay, well I made more money at TWA because of our very flexible work rules than I did working topped out at AA. I could easily make 50K at TWA with creative trading and picking up soft time trips with less hours and more credit. International could make more say around 60K give or take.

We had better insurance at TWA and at AA I had to pre-fund. Union dues were higher and pass charges cost more.

What really pissed me off is I wrote a letter for a friend who was not hired at TWA and I wrote a letter of recommendation for him at AA after he was turned down six months prior and then was re-interviewed and hired at AA. He had three months on the line and is senior to me and at the time I had almost 18 years. So you think that is fair?
 
See here is the difference between you and I
Hot,

There are clearly some differences regarding how we see eye to eye on certain topics.

but I will note..

your brutal, hardcore, in your face style of complete honesty is appreciated.

why?

because there is no fluff and you tell it exactly how you see an issue.. regardless if someone cares for it or not.

I rather someone be up front and tell the deal rather than be fake about it and pull a stunt later on.

so in that regard, it is appreciated and I also really appreciate all points of view, for balanced perspectives, its important to see an issue from all angles.
 
Hot, unfortunately for YOU, the law is in place. Arbitration is where seniority disputes are going to go in either acquisitions or mergers. Sorry, I was a member of the f/a class and craft with a airline that was still operating.

I missed being 50 at the time of furlough which would have given me my bridge to retirement and people who were 50 at furlough who had less years than me were able to take it. I got screwed and will not be eligible until I am recalled.


It's not unfortunate, it's just how it should be. I don't agree with people having the right to seniority, when it's not two airlines that have something to offer each other and a full on merger. If I worked for American and you were given your seniority, I would of been furloughed while you and your TWA co-workers enjoyed (with such high seniority) the best of the best. It wouldn't be fair and I don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

It's a sad, sad situation and I hope Continental continues to thrive, but if the airline doesn't. I would never let myself slip into your shoes. I've given up quite a few years of seniority to be happy. I never expected it to be honored.

With the new law you are so proud of, it will ruin more people then I think will ever help. I also find it sad a law would dictate what should be decided on behalf of employees and unions.

I also would like to know, if so unfair and unjust, why the seniority case was thrown out of the courts?

Finally, a few years ago a now retired TWA co-worker of yours on airlinecrew.net was question about the entire situation. She stated and I quote "The only airline that ever screwed me was TWA". I wish I could find the post but I can't.

Good Luck with your recall, I would never wish anyone out of work.
 
Hot, perhaps you should ask Pat Friend why AFA has a no staple policy. AFA is the largest f/a Union in case you did not know. Also you never addressed the Ozark TWA merger when Ozark got their DOH.

Keep in mind that if it were not for the TWA f/a's who pioneered, you would not have the work rules that you have today. Since ALSSA they have fought for you and me. IFFA fought to give you flight time limitations which the other airlines are now covered under as well as the weight cases.

As far as pay, well I made more money at TWA because of our very flexible work rules than I did working topped out at AA. I could easily make 50K at TWA with creative trading and picking up soft time trips with less hours and more credit. International could make more say around 60K give or take.

We had better insurance at TWA and at AA I had to pre-fund. Union dues were higher and pass charges cost more.

What really pissed me off is I wrote a letter for a friend who was not hired at TWA and I wrote a letter of recommendation for him at AA after he was turned down six months prior and then was re-interviewed and hired at AA. He had three months on the line and is senior to me and at the time I had almost 18 years. So you think that is fair?

AFA doesn't represent me so I don't know why, but I don't agree with it. In certain situations, stapling should be permitted and the by laws should be amended with certain situations and stipulations, and scenarios as to when it is fair to staple a group of employees under another.

If TWA had a full blown MERGER not an acquisition or asset sale or transfer with Ozark, they deserved DOH, if it wasn't a merger, then the people of TWA were screwed out of seniority.

Thats wonderful what TWA Flight Attendants did in the past and I commend the people who did it and made better work rules possible. I am sure PAA and many other airlines F/A's were right there fighting.

It doesn't change the fact that over time TWA (A company that never had a profitable existence, let alone history) started to fail. The company died a slow death from the late 80's to the year 2000. Many employed by TWA left the company because they felt they knew the company was going to close it's door.

Look at the heroic Uli Derickson, she left and went to Delta in the early 90's.
A close friend of mine at Delta worked at TWA for one year when she first started flying. She knew nothing about the industry when she started flying and even she knew after one year, TWA would not be around for much longer and left.

Finally TWA ran out of time and lets be honest, the airline had few options. I am friendly with a share holder/board guy and he will flat out tell you TWA ran out of time and MONEY. It was the AA deal, cut the airline up into pieces and/or sold off to other airlines OR Chapter 7. They felt the AA deal was the best for the employees. It gave everyone jobs and no one knew 9/11 would happen. If it had not you would be enjoying what AA had to offer.

As for your friend, if he was hired by American Airlines before TWA was aquired, then yes, he deserved to be senior to you if his hire date was before your 2001 DOH. Sorry, but thats just how I see it. I am not saying this to be mean, this is just what I think is fair and what is unfair to a few might be completely fair to a much larger group of people.

So let me ask you this! How would you feel being given your full seniority at AA and then knowing you bumped a few thousand to the street? You think that is fair? Would you be fighting for a law to protect all of those nAAtives? Would you feel guilty? (I know I would)
 
I am not going to argue anymore with your half truths. I will correct you on one thing. Uli took full retirement from TWA and then went to DL. May Uli RIP.
 
I am not going to argue anymore with your half truths. I will correct you on one thing. Uli took full retirement from TWA and then went to DL. May Uli RIP.


I'm not arguing with anyone. I don't argue or allow people I don't know to upset me through a message board. The only half truths come from your end and your mind, because I am not saying and agreeing with what you want. I'm stating facts. You still have not answered any of my questions.

As for ULI Derickson, she may have retired from TWA but she left the airline nonetheless and went to work for Delta and for obvious reasons. Have a good one.
 
AA had probationary f/a's at the time of furlough. They should had been let go first. APFA violated their own CBA.

Here it is:


Paragraph 2-AA promised Congress our seniority would be fair & equitable

f/a's hired in 2001-4 days before our staple-then a presidential grievance to prevent them from
being terminated and furloughed instead (CBA states they are terminated w/o 6 months service)
further saving them and screwing us

These several hundred probation f/a's should had been terminated. A grievance is still pending on this case. This will probably go to the arbitrator.

I attended the Congressional hearings and the Sense of The Senate. I think I know what I am talking about. Trust me we are making headway in DCA. We are gathering support from Senators and Congress men/women. The fat lady has not sung yet.
 
This topic has drifted far enough off topic. If you would like to continue the AA/TW discussion, please do so via PM.

Let's get this thread back on track folks.
 
Moderator, as far a I am concerned this thread has run its course. Simply just close it and we can all move on from this topic which has been discussed at length. The contributors on this thread are off topic and I am guilty as well. Sorry.
 
AA had probationary f/a's at the time of furlough. They should had been let go first. APFA violated their own CBA.

Here it is:


Paragraph 2-AA promised Congress our seniority would be fair & equitable

f/a's hired in 2001-4 days before our staple-then a presidential grievance to prevent them from
being terminated and furloughed instead (CBA states they are terminated w/o 6 months service)
further saving them and screwing us

These several hundred probation f/a's should had been terminated. A grievance is still pending on this case. This will probably go to the arbitrator.

I attended the Congressional hearings and the Sense of The Senate. I think I know what I am talking about. Trust me we are making headway in DCA. We are gathering support from Senators and Congress men/women. The fat lady has not sung yet.

My point was jsut verified, that you are more then willing to have people hired by american airlines fired to make room for you. So wrong beyond belief! Those new hires worked hard for the job they obtained with aa and deserve it more then you. Thank god for apfa, and I can only hope aa f/a's are fighting against your losing cause. You chose TWA, not them and now you have to reap what a dieing company gets you..... NOTHING. I really hope my local has taken some good learning lessons from apfa.
 
I have decided to reopen this thread. All posts need to be on topic (ie. the representation vote at DAL). This is the final warning.

NO MORE AA vs. TW posts will be allowed.

Thank you.
 
Yes I did. Just because you either A) didn't like what I posted or B) Couldn't grasp it, isn't my problem.




Whatever.

Maybe you could show me what of substance you're contributing to these boards? All I see is feeble attempts at personal attacks towards those with whom you disagree.
Funny how you see a reasonable business question as a personal attack (actually it's quite sad). You might want to research the medical coverage part of one of your answers a little more. I have had to use mine quite extensively and this year I haven't paid a dime out of pocket. With your coverage I would have been out the $750.00 long ago. Eveybody who thinks they want a union need to research and make sure the union people are comparing apples to apples and not believe what the company nor the unions have to say. BTW you are assuming I am in Tech Ops and my pay is fine. What do I think we should be paid? Depends on corporate profits before management bonuses.