IAM FILES AT DELTA FOR UNION REPRESENTATION

[HottootrotNyc]

you know, I can actually sit here and think about what you have posted and see where you are coming from..yes, its difficult to think about working so many years for a company and then they decide to merger and all these new people are coming in ahead of me.. yeah it seems like its not fair... but its quite one thing to actually think about how unfair it may be and then..

actually doing it, like..stapling someone to the bottom of a list!


unless they have the ability to build a time machine and go back to the Roaring 1920's.. none of us are working for the "original company" the airline industry is a series of mergers and acquisitions since way back then to present day.

(know what Im saying)


and no one deserves to lose all their seniority because of the decision of top management either.

(you know since when do they ever ask us if its ok to merge?)

usually you find out they have merged on the six-o-clock news!



this sort of how I look at it, if they are looking out for the interest of all the union members, that would also include those from the other group who will also become a member of that union when all is said and done. they are not to be two separate groups if both groups are to be integrated.. so if a line is used, we are protecting the members, they need to do just that..

all of them, current and those who will be joining the fold as well..

(especially if they are requiring the new people to pay dues)

you know..

Life is not fair, that is why you always want to try to be fair, when you absolutely have the ability to make it that way.

(for everyone)

Well this is where a lot of people seem to misunderstand, this was not a merger in anyway shape or form. This was not like NWA and Delta agreeing to join and make a great airline. It was AA buying what was left of a dead company. AMR could of saved themselves lots of money and time by just hiring off the street and dropping every single TWA employee. They had that ability, BUT didn't. Sorry to say but I bet they wish they did, it would of saved them probably a few billion in operating costs.

As for thinking something and doing something, if we were talking about murder then I would agree with you but we are not. We are talking about what is fair for the employees of the purchasing company and what they felt was the right course to protect all of the AA F/A's on AA's seniority list. The TWA people were not APFA members and were not of concern, AA F/A's were. They were only members after what was decided to do with them, so if the TWA F/A's have any grief it should be with TWA and then the IAM. In all reality TWA was the company that sold all of it's employees up the river many moons ago.

As for the "original company", what I was referring to was a person being hired at AA and another at TWA, no matter what the time period is or was. I don't care what had been done in the past to form each airline, only the present matters. Also each situation is different, some are mergers and some are not.

Frontier went out of business and PE purchased them after they already closed shop, they gave the Frontier F/A's full seniority. The PE people had no say in it and were not happy and would of gladly had them place under them as the new hires they were. When CO bought PE, they were not given full seniority and that was fair. PE was broke and about to close up shop and basically got lucky. They are very senior F/A's today.

As for asking us about merger's and purchasing assets, never said they would come and ask us. What they should do is step out of the way and allow the work groups hash out what they think would be a fair shake. NWA+DL= Merger, DOH, seniority for all F/A's, AA+TWA=Asset purchase, F/A's were part of the purchasing deal and APFA and all of AA F/A's felt they didn't deserve full DOH and that was what was decided.

As you stated, life isn't fair, you win some and you lose some. While this was a loss for TWA it was a major victory for AA and being able to protect it's nAAtives.

 

[Dignity]

Hot,

I can see your point, I understand what you are implying, it does make some sense.

there are sometimes issues that I do not agree with at all, but you have to try and look past a personal opinion and focus on.. what is the best situation for the group.. that will ensure or most importantly..attempted.. fairness for every single person...and that happens by taking the considerations and perspectives of both sides, not just focusing solely on one and then dismissing the other altogether.

now...

Well this is where a lot of people seem to misunderstand, this was not a merger in anyway shape or form. This was not like NWA and Delta agreeing to join and make a great airline. It was AA buying what was left of a dead company.

I seem to recall them advertising the "merger" at that time..

American and TWA..

"Two great airlines, one great future"..

not..

"We are the greatest ever and a clunker on its last leg" ..

I also remember they were making a lot of promises to get that merger approved by stating everything would be fair and equitable, ext.

AMR could of saved themselves lots of money and time by just hiring off the street and dropping every single TWA employee. They had that ability, BUT didn't. Sorry to say but I bet they wish they did, it would of saved them probably a few billion in operating costs.

the downturn after 9/11 is really what probably caused the financial strain, not the employees.

We are talking about what is fair for the employees of the purchasing company and what they felt was the right course to protect all of the AA F/A's on AA's seniority list. The TWA people were not APFA members and were not of concern, AA F/A's were. They were only members after what was decided to do with them, so if the TWA F/A's have any grief it should be with TWA and then the IAM. In all reality TWA was the company that sold all of it's employees up the river many moons ago.

they should have simply let it go Chapter 7 and then picked up the pieces ...and what they wanted on the courthouse steps then, (but I think they asked them to file bankruptcy to begin with)
when these companies agree to take on a company including employees then they have a responsibility to treat everyone fairly. (and that includes the Flight Attendants!)

As for the "original company", what I was referring to was a person being hired at AA and another at TWA, no matter what the time period is or was. I don't care what had been done in the past to form each airline, only the present matters. Also each situation is different, some are mergers and some are not.

I know, but the point is.. that is not how the airline industry has grown for the most part, it is a continued progress of mergers, it has been this way all throughout the industry. there was a time when the government actually controlled how labor issues were to be resolved up until deregulation , so its nothing new and yes it does matter!

Frontier went out of business and PE purchased them after they already closed shop, they gave the Frontier F/A's full seniority. The PE people had no say in it and were not happy and would of gladly had them place under them as the new hires they were. When CO bought PE, they were not given full seniority and that was fair. PE was broke and about to close up shop and basically got lucky. They are very senior F/A's today.

no one is really "happy" in these situations regarding every single person, that is why you have to do what is fair for all! that would be the group..

As for asking us about merger's and purchasing assets, never said they would come and ask us. What they should do is step out of the way and allow the work groups hash out what they think would be a fair shake. NWA+DL= Merger, DOH, seniority for all F/A's, AA+TWA=Asset purchase, F/A's were part of the purchasing deal and APFA and all of AA F/A's felt they didn't deserve full DOH and that was what was decided.

correct, they "felt" they didnt deserve full seniority.

As you stated, life isn't fair, you win some and you lose some. While this was a loss for TWA it was a major victory for AA and being able to protect it's nAAtives.

read my quote again..

 

[Dignity]

Eastern Airlines

I remember in the very early 1990's being at a domestic layover sitting down stairs in the lobby awating our pickup.. this was prior to the complete shut down of Eastern Airlines after they had attempted to restore some of the damage prior to 1989 when the Management team completely wrecked havoc on the airline.

a very young woman, early 20's, blonde hair...she was wearing a neatly pressed navy blue uniform, jacket and skirt and a blue hat! (this is 1991) I wondered who in the world she represented looking that polished and professional at 5 am in the morning!

(she appeared like she worked for an International Carrier)

it was probably the uniform hat she was wearing that did that..Eastern apparently had just gone through a complete uniform change attempting to revamp the image.

she walked over to the desk and dropped her key off and then turned around and walked over to where I was sitting and smiled..then she asked..

"where did I find the coffee", and I told her,

"they did not have it out but the lady in the restaurant would get her a cup from the kitchen"

(now coffee out in the lobby seems to be the norm)

she received her coffee and then sat down

I smiled at her and asked her.. "who she flew for, because I liked her uniform"

she said.."Eastern Airlines".."the new Eastern Airlines".. she expressed enthusiasm and really seemed to be excited..and she went on to explain she had just been hired on recently..and we chatted for some time.

I sat there for a moment and then really thought

(wow, Eastern has gone through so much and it was refreshing to see a Flight Attendant with such a positive attitude)
but at the same time, I was..

thankful.

I was not flying with them.

and flying for a company who was really financially sound and how I appreciated that fact.....


Shortly thereafter, Eastern Airlines would shut down forever

she is the last memory I have of that airline

and I am thankful it is a good one and how I had an opportunity to talk with her on that very early morning.



I encourage everyone to please take the time and read about the demise of Eastern Airlines and the individuals who were responsible for the ultimate destruction of such a great airline.

Visit your bookstores and look in the history or aviation sections or just ask the clerk for assistance on any information on Eastern Airlines, there is much information available. it is indeed eye opening and so very sad.. how the greed and total disregard of just a few people in Management can destroy the lives and households of thousands of aviation professionals,

who are our neighbors, friends and members of the community.

some may try to cover the truth as manipulation, intimidation, or even rumor, that is why it is imperative to research the facts...for yourself. while keeping an open mind to others inputs regarding their personal perspectives.

some times I have thought about what happened to that Flight Attendant. I saw that very early morning and briefly chatted with..and if she continued on with another career with another airline..

with her enthusiasm, demeanor and how pleasant she was and so professional, she would have represented any company proudly and they would have been lucky to have her..

I am sure she excelled in whatever she chose to do..


just like all the others at Eastern Airlines that had come before her.

 

[Kev3188]

with her enthusiasm, demeanor and how pleasant she was and so professional, she would have represented any company proudly and they would have been lucky to have her..

I am sure she excelled in whatever she chose to do..

Dignity--

There are thousands of people just like this at NW already. You've probably flown with more than a few, and I've worked the ramp with many. I imagine that there are quite a few of our new in-laws who fit the same mold.

None of matters unless/until management (at any company, not just NW/DL) start recognizing that talent as an asset, and not a liability.

 

[Dignity]

Dignity--

There are thousands of people just like this at NW already. You've probably flown with more than a few, and I've worked the ramp with many. I imagine that there are quite a few of our new in-laws who fit the same mold.

I have and I know..

I have always been proud of Northwest, the people, the airline.

the positive impressions encountered from most at Delta In flight have been outstanding.

it is always appreciated when professionalism overall... really rules the day.

The I.A.M has made mistakes, detrimental to some, very positive for others, nothing is perfect.

they (I.A.M) did secure the jobs of many at Northwest in some of the most tumultuous times in the history of our company that cannot be overlooked..

(even after the events of what happened at Eastern Airlines seemed a distant memory..who would have thought a Management team.. would ever attempt something as heinous.. occuring just as recently in 2005.. when it appeared the complete job elimination to the same employees.. who had just helped the company secure record profits for well over a decade,

I honestly try to look back at these terrible events of aviation history..as a lesson that something is to be learned.)

Keep an open mind, educate yourself and focus.

"cooler heads prevail."

(there is always another side to a sad story, sometimes the flip side is much brighter)

when it is all said and done,

we have to come together as a group..

and we will.

because,

everything that happens then..and now..creates,

history.

when the future generations look back and study aviation and the entire industry including the demise of Eastern Airlines, and the tragic events of 9-11, the down turn of the airline industry, the TWA staple, the bankruptcies, the job elimination of Northwest Mechanics and Cleaners, the attempted outsourcing of Flight Attendants to non-US citizens and those who have a legal right to work in the United States of America onboard US flag carriers to and from the USA.

I only hope that going forward we will be the generation that finally is able to turn the course to

doing the right thing.


I want to be part of the generation that finally gets it.. understands what it means to be a professional and returning our industry back to what it always should have been.. hospitality, graciousness, a sense of fairness to all..keeping safety as the highest priority.. and those who finally understand what it really means..

fairness to those who support the airline, the employees, customers and communities served.


and I hope that means a new beginning going forward

(doing the right thing)

starts at..

Delta.

 

[galleyguy4u2]

Hot: The 2007 Omnibus Bill contains language that now requires unions to negotiate seniority integration or submit the matter to binding arbitration. Very unlikely we will ever see a complete staple again and you can thank the TWA f/a's for lobbying for this bill. The bill has been signed.

 

[tech2101]

THIS JUST IN!

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Celebrating a decade of growth, and looking to the future...

To apply for an aviation career at Minneapolis/St Paul mail an employment application to the address below.

Download Employment Application (requires Adobe Acrobat Reader)

DALGlobal Services, LLC

Minneapolis St. Paul International Airport

Main Terminal

4300 Glumack Drive

St Paul, MN 55111
Phone: 612-725-4963

 

[Delta Technician]

Are you serious?

What part of my response went over your head?





Seems pretty clear to me. Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't make it "rubbish."

Since you failed to answer my question to you, I'll ask again; what would you propose we all make in both wages & benefits (both Tech Ops & ACS)?

As usual you never answered my question to you. You have given discredit to any reply to anything in this thread or any other for that matter. Go ahead dig yourself in deeper.

 

[tech2101]

As usual you never answered my question to you. You have given discredit to any reply to anything in this thread or any other for that matter. Go ahead dig yourself in deeper.

Wrong. All ACS employees are still on their respective pre-merger scale.
*Unlimited sick time accruals
*Unlimited OJI time accruals
*A medical deductible that is 1/4 that of the closest comparable DL plan ($750 vs $3000)
*Fixed caps on any increase in premiums
*Retiree medical
*No SS offset
*IAM pension
*6 weeks of vacation annually vs. 4 at DL
*Inclusive lunch on most shifts vs. none at DL
*Ability to exercise seniority in the event of a layoff
Those are just a few, and that doesn't count the biggest one of all; Scope.

I am confused here Delta Technician. What are you asking Kev to answer?

I think this has been lost in translation for us bystanders.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Hot: The 2007 Omnibus Bill contains language that now requires unions to negotiate seniority integration or submit the matter to binding arbitration. Very unlikely we will ever see a complete staple again and you can thank the TWA f/a's for lobbying for this bill. The bill has been signed.

Thank you? Thank you for what? For crying and ruining the Flight Attendants and unions option to integrate bodies purchased through an asset sale and giving them everything because they feel they deserve it? For allowing employees from a dead airline to have the ability to bump a healthy airline employees to the street? I don't understand what I should be thanking you for. If anything I am sick and disgusted that you think you should of had the ability to have your seniority at an airline you

TWA did not MERGE with AA, they were bought. TWA brought NOTHING to the table, if anything they further ruined American Airlines and put them in a financial hole. IMO, you should be thankful you got anything, because no matter what anyone here says, fact is TWA had no money and no other airline wanted anything but a few pieces from TWA. Still leaving the employees with no job.

If this ever came about where I would have to lose seniority in the same manner AA employees might have, just like TWA people fought for what they did not deserve. I would fight the opposite! Countless jobs would of been lost if you were not stapled and yours would of been protected? How in your own mind is that right? It's not..... Blame who you need to blame, but make sure it goes to the team that really sold you down the river, TWA.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Hot,

I can see your point, I understand what you are implying, it does make some sense.

there are sometimes issues that I do not agree with at all, but you have to try and look past a personal opinion and focus on.. what is the best situation for the group.. that will ensure or most importantly..attempted.. fairness for every single person...and that happens by taking the considerations and perspectives of both sides, not just focusing solely on one and then dismissing the other altogether.

now...


I seem to recall them advertising the "merger" at that time..

American and TWA..

"Two great airlines, one great future"..

not..

"We are the greatest ever and a clunker on its last leg" ..

I also remember they were making a lot of promises to get that merger approved by stating everything would be fair and equitable, ext.


the downturn after 9/11 is really what probably caused the financial strain, not the employees.


they should have simply let it go Chapter 7 and then picked up the pieces ...and what they wanted on the courthouse steps then, (but I think they asked them to file bankruptcy to begin with)
when these companies agree to take on a company including employees then they have a responsibility to treat everyone fairly. (and that includes the Flight Attendants!)


I know, but the point is.. that is not how the airline industry has grown for the most part, it is a continued progress of mergers, it has been this way all throughout the industry. there was a time when the government actually controlled how labor issues were to be resolved up until deregulation , so its nothing new and yes it does matter!


no one is really "happy" in these situations regarding every single person, that is why you have to do what is fair for all! that would be the group..


correct, they "felt" they didnt deserve full seniority.


read my quote again..

Makes some sense? No, it makes complete sense and there is no reason to look past person opinion and focus on the other group. There were two groups, AA and TWA, not one single group. The union focused on it's group, AA and did what they KNEW was the right thing to do. I doubt you would be willing to give new hires seniority just because, and that it what they essentially were to American, new hires.

Now....


"Two great airlines, one great future"... AA's management, not AA F/A's, NOT APFA made these statementes.


As for financial strain, when you are paying hundreds of millions for an airline with no money to keep to the sky, yes, that to is a financial strain. By all means, check how much money AA was feeding to TWA. This is why I can't understand how galleyguy thinks the airline had money.

They asked TWA to do what was inevitable, file for Chapter 11. If it were not for AA, you are correct they would not of been filing Chapter 11, they would have had to file for Chapter 7. Remember AA paid to keep the name flying while in reorganization.

As far as a responsibility towards fairness, it was fair a lot more fair then what they would of gotten had AA not come around. The AA F/A's were fully protected and the new hires (TWA F/A's) were generously given a large pay raise, better vacation, and a better contract over all. Sadly, 9/11 and the fuel crisis devastated AA and they needed to reduce payroll and had to start with the newly hired and former TWA employees.

As for re-reading your quote, don't need to. I don't agree with your idea of a national seniority list, essentially this is what you are saying would be fair. Well most would think other wise. No matter who bought and who merged and through that caused what airline to become who. It doesn't mean employees of the failed and bought airlines deserve to have what they did at the defaulted airline. These people are now new hires and if given anything more then what a new hire would receive, the unions and new airline are being VERY generous.

 

[Dignity]

Makes some sense? No, it makes complete sense

it makes some sense.

I don't agree with your idea of a national seniority list

that makes no sense.

(because I never posted that!)

That particular merger made no sense at all.. unless there was an idea included with the principal reason and purpose.. was to send people to a place where things could be better.

if that cannot happen, then do not take on a company and their employees, unless fairness for all, will rule the day!

 

[Kev3188]

As usual you never answered my question to you.

Yes I did. Just because you either A) didn't like what I posted or B) Couldn't grasp it, isn't my problem.

You have given discredit to any reply to anything in this thread or any other for that matter. Go ahead dig yourself in deeper.

Whatever.

Maybe you could show me what of substance you're contributing to these boards? All I see is feeble attempts at personal attacks towards those with whom you disagree.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

it makes some sense.


that makes no sense.

(because I never posted that!)

That particular merger made no sense at all.. unless there was an idea included with the principal reason and purpose.. was to send people to a place where things could be better.

if that cannot happen, then do not take on a company and their employees, unless fairness for all, will rule the day!

Again, it makes complete sense.


There was an idea included with the principal reason and purpose, to match the size of what UAL and US would of been, a relief hub at STL, and to finally be rid of a dieing airline.

It did happen and they took what they needed and fairness for all did rule the day. It's just the TWA people were greedy and not happy with the new airline they were working for.

You didn't out right say anything about a national seniority list, but what you imply the TWA F/A's should be given is basically just that.

 

[tech2101]

THIS JUST IN!

Kev and the rest of the Ramp/CSA people.

Why is DGS hiring at the MSP hub?

See this post.