Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

PHX,

I agree, the LOS is a another whole subject and probably a better way to go. The the size of the new AAS along with DAL, UAL plus SWA, AS and others, a national list is probably something to be looked at for new hires and the future. I don't think it would work for everyone today.

 
Agreed.  I am all for saving the world, solving the national seniority list issue, and getting pay based on LOS.... after we finish our merger.   🙂

 

[end_of_alpa]

Ok.So in two years, AA is forecast to have 67 777's, over 60 767's and the first of 42 firm 787's arriving on the property (Group IV rates). As we stand today, bottom AA 777 Captain has a July 1986 DOH and with the above fleet which should drop to 1988 fairly quickly. 767 Captain lineholders have a 1990 DOH.If I understand you correctly, your position is that the lists should be DOH only, and if the next 500 current AA based 777/787/767 Captain slots are filled with the long stagnated LCC East bottom narrow body Captain and FO's, the AA FO's and junior narrow body Captains should just stand aside?Re: The APA comments on Captain pay because they were hired "as Captains", many here have been fighting a battle to raise the FO percentages based on years of service. It's a hard battle and not going anywhere.

And we have 16 A330 and 10 B767 with 22 A350 and 15 A330 aircraft on order. You seem to forget that your leadership deemed so important to have US airways merge to stay Competative with Delta and United yet somehow seem to believe that even with our greater numbers of retirement attrition you and yours want advanced valuation for your years of service with American. Just like TWA II, trying to screw others with your superior Aryan race. You and AWA pilots will fit nicely together. The battle for increased pay for "first officer inferior APA pilots who are really Captains, just don't get paid like it" is the typical APA superiority complex that keeps all pilots in the profession at each other's throats.

 

[Phoenix]

And we have 16 A330 and 10 B767 with 22 A350 and 15 A330 aircraft on order. You seem to forget that your leadership deemed so important to have US airways merge to stay Competative with Delta and United yet somehow seem to believe that even with our greater numbers of retirement attrition you and yours want advanced valuation for your years of service with American. Just like TWA II, trying to screw others with your superior Aryan race. You and AWA pilots will fit nicely together.

 
 
Even as a casual observer, I notice a slight difference between Res J. and Mach85ER.   Just sayin'.    

 

[nevergiveup]

PHX,

I agree, the LOS is a another whole subject and probably a better way to go. The the size of the new AAS along with DAL, UAL plus SWA, AS and others, a national list is probably something to be looked at for new hires and the future. I don't think it would work for everyone today.

Of course using LOS could really hurt jr. west pilots that were furoloughed. I admit that I haven't looked at the numbers.  

 

[Reed Richards]

 
 
What it was doesn't matter.  The fact Doug needed it is what mattered.  I did not want CoC.  Doug wanted (needed) it.   
 
 
 
 
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]You are touching on the prime area of disagreement by supporters and detractors of giving up Code Share and COC. Unfortunately, it was deemed Parker might have been able to engage in "one way" code share without us agreeing. You can bet he would have done so. As to COC he would have moved forward anyway with the merger, and we would have been tied up in the "expedited" grievance process, which Ciabattoni even admitted could go a year or longer, while we stayed on LOA 93. If we won, it was not that much of a raise for half our pilots, considering loss of MOU wages over the dispute. And all our 190 guys and all the West had no dog in the COC fight.  No soup for them.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Of course Parker wanted it all the easy way, and of course it was poker game. All of legal, the Officers, All the BPR, and 75% or our pilots deemed the best course was the bird in the hand. You guys can all talk about "giving away" something for less than it was worth till the cows come home, but I still believe we did the best we could with this dysfunctional group, a corrupt Grievance system, and the cards we were dealt.  I contend nothing was given away. It was traded.  And those opposed “will always have Paris” in regards to bowing up and calling the trade a giveaway.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Perhaps the minority that opposed the MOU should now  recall the President.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]RR[/SIZE]

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
 
Even as a casual observer, I notice a slight difference between Res J. and Mach85ER.   Just sayin'.  

While I would agree with most of your assertion, it seems that when I reference things like "10-K's" or "why APA pilots wanted the merger" or even APA support for entry level Captains....American pilots, like the AWA, seem to "cherry pick" arguments that they believe give them superiority career expectation arguments that carry no basis in fact.

 

[Res Judicata]

And we have 16 A330 and 10 B767 with 22 A350 and 15 A330 aircraft on order. You seem to forget that your leadership deemed so important to have US airways merge to stay Competative with Delta and United yet somehow seem to believe that even with our greater numbers of retirement attrition you and yours want advanced valuation for your years of service with American. Just like TWA II, trying to screw others with your superior Aryan race. You and AWA pilots will fit nicely together. The battle for increased pay for "first officer inferior APA pilots who are really Captains, just don't get paid like it" is the typical APA superiority complex that keeps all pilots in the profession at each other's throats.

Will the scabs PLEASE let you on the merger committee? You have no concept of how little you bring to the table...hence the table scraps you were thrown in the MOU. You are not going to retire on any metal AA operates. Get it? Not yours. You are NOT ENTITLED to any of it. Good thing you idiots decided not to show up yesterday, you wouldn't have liked it AT ALL anyway. Here's a hint:

Walking away from negotiations when you're asking Parker to pay you MORE MONEY is one thing. A no brainer for Parker. He lets you hang yourselves no problem. Screw with his crowning career achievement and watch how it goes down this time.

You're nothing, you won't stop anything. Impotent, ignored, neutered and pointless. That's your fake union. It's best you don't attend any of this...the adults are talking now. We don't need any "serious scabs doing serious scab work" interrupting the grown ups.

Don't you have a USA Today ad to be working on?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Of course using LOS could really hurt jr. west pilots that were furoloughed. I admit that I haven't looked at the numbers.  

Look, no one wants anyone in the world to lose their jobs for any reason, but there will always be furlough/job loss measured in time rather than pain.  Labor has fought against company lockouts and hiring "strike breakers" back in the late 19th early 20th century.  Behncke new early on the need for pilots being pilots.  The groups didn't listen and we are where we are.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Will the scabs PLEASE let you on the merger committee? You have no concept of how little you bring to the table...hence the table scraps you were thrown in the MOU. You are not going to retire on any metal AA operates. Get it? Not yours. You are NOT ENTITLED to any of it. Good thing you idiots decided not to show up yesterday, you wouldn't have liked it AT ALL anyway. Here's a hint:

Walking away from negotiations when you're asking Parker to pay you MORE MONEY is one thing. A no brainer for Parker. He lets you hang yourselves no problem. Screw with his crowning career achievement and watch how it goes down this time.

You're nothing, you won't stop anything. Impotent, ignored, neutered and pointless. That's your fake union. It's best you don't attend any of this...the adults are talking now. We don't need any "serious scabs doing serious scab work" interrupting the grown ups.

Don't you have a USA Today ad to be working on?

See Mach?  This what you can expect from Westicles.

 

[Res Judicata]

See Mach?  This what you can expect from Westicles.

Facts? Honest assessments of reality? No delusions of grandeur? Sanity?

Oh, now I get your confusion. You're all incapable of any of this. You think being a PIT DC-9 FO in the late 90's bought you a left seat on an American 777.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Facts? Honest assessments of reality? No delusions of grandeur? Sanity?
Oh, now I get your confusion. You're all incapable of any of this. You think being a PIT DC-9 FO in the late 90's bought you a left seat on an American 777.

Yep.

 

[Reed Richards]

 
I think, perhaps, you are overstating your case.  The point you are missing is that, had we rejected MOU I and the UCC chose to never present anything again to USAPA, we would still have our very strong scope language in place.  The company and the UCC absolutely needed that scope language gone in order to make the merger work in the way they wanted it to.  
 
Sure, maybe Dec 9th would have come and gone and we on the east would still be working under LOA 93 rates, but meantime USAPA would be clipping the thread holding the Sword of Damocles over the New AA.  Maybe the long-term result would be better, worse or the same.  There is no way to tell anymore.  But those of us who voted against MOU II were confident enough that Parker and the UCC were really in a bind.

[SIZE=10.5pt]There was no sword of Damocles, and of course Scope had its value, but would not have stopped the transaction. Read my post a few minutes ago responding to Phoenix. The number one problem we had with enforcing the scope we did have was the corrupt Grievance system. Our track record speaks volumes. The process was linear, and all these arguments came up. But in the end just about all involved made a decision to move on the MOU.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Most here pontificate as to what value and improvement we could have had by holding out. I still shiver to think we could have been totally bypassed. It almost happened twice, the most dangerous time being the confrontation with the UCC at the end of MOU II. RR[/SIZE]

 

[Mach85ER]

 

And we have 16 A330 and 10 B767 with 22 A350 and 15 A330 aircraft on order. You seem to forget that your leadership deemed so important to have US airways merge to stay Competative with Delta and United yet somehow seem to believe that even with our greater numbers of retirement attrition you and yours want advanced valuation for your years of service with American. Just like TWA II, trying to screw others with your superior Aryan race. You and AWA pilots will fit nicely together. The battle for increased pay for "first officer inferior APA pilots who are really Captains, just don't get paid like it" is the typical APA superiority complex that keeps all pilots in the profession at each other's throats.

Lighten up. I don't have all day to formulate an ironclad list merge that would escape your rants.

I didn't reference your widebodies, only AA's. I also tossed our 12 767-200's out of the mix since they are old and heading to the beer can factory. Yours are too, so consider them gone.

As for LCC's Airbus widebodies? Keep them for yourselves, every seat. Figure the seat numbers and you guys can have every last one. I know your high retirement numbers for the rest of the fleet. Keep them too. How you made the leap to accuse me of a seat grab of the 40% of your guys retiring over the next few years is ridiculous. I haven't heard word spoken from an AA guy that thinks we should capitalize on the LCC retirements. Paywise, the A330/50's is the same as the 777. Just remember that many AA 777's are crewed by 4 guys vs all of LCC's 3 crews.

As for the future growth beyond current orders&options, structure it so both sides have access to those seats based on ratio of both pilot groups today. No, AA guys shouldn't have all seats of future widebody orders. Both AA and LCC needed each other given the mergers of DAL and UAL. Spare me the idea that LCC was a amazing success by itself and we were "saved". We both have our issues.


As for the link you posted about Captain qualifications? I still don't know what the ###L you are talking about. That release was only to state that airline pilots should be certificated with an ATP, nothing to do with seniority, pay or benefits.

Go back to my earlier post. Do you think all bidding should be unrestricted DOH after the merge?

FYI, I'm not a Sky Nazi, just a humble Strom Trooper.

 

[Claxon]

Will the scabs PLEASE let you on the merger committee? You have no concept of how little you bring to the table...hence the table scraps you were thrown in the MOU. You are not going to retire on any metal AA operates. Get it? Not yours. You are NOT ENTITLED to any of it. Good thing you idiots decided not to show up yesterday, you wouldn't have liked it AT ALL anyway.

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j5t5aE0iW4o#t=30

 

[Claxon]

"Another highlight is a rarely-seen recruitment video tempting American pilots to immigrate to Australia to work for the airline. Made in 1989 and presented by American-born actor (and non-pilot) David Arnett, this video was most likely produced in response to the Australian domestic airline industry’s pilot dispute in August of that year.
 
The pilots were caught in a stalemate with the airlines as they lobbied for a 29.47% wage increase after many years of wage suppression. Subsequently many pilots resigned en masse, and the airlines went looking overseas to recruit. Specifically recruiting pilots to be based out of Ansett Australia’s Melbourne headquarters, the film promotes the many benefits of working in the Australian aviation industry and heavily promotes the city of Melbourne. Pilots interviewed discuss Australia’s favourable weather conditions, and the less congested skies of Australia’s airways (NFSA Title #1033681)."
 
http://www.nfsa.gov.au/blog/2012/03/15/ansett/