US Pilot Labor Thread--ALL Pilot/Union Issues Discussed Here

[ableoneable]

I hope you're correct and the rest of the world agrees with Mr. Freund, who said that the Nic award was merely ALPA's "bargaining position", and that the company is in no way bound to accept it.

Read it here:
http://www.bigjetcity.com/index.php/articl...nts_-_ALPA_Suit

Document #3, about halfway down.

Yes, the company had the option to challenge the award if they felt that implementing it would cause undue economic hardship. (i.e. the award required a flush bid and massive retraining.)

The company, however, did not object and accepted the award. That chapter of the story is quite closed.

 

[LSS]

Quite frankly, I think it's an enormous waste of bandwidth to continue to rehash this same issue time and time and time and time again... The enforceability of the award is now in jurisprudence's hands, and everyone's opinions on this topic are pure speculation. People, there's a heck of a lot of other important issues to deal with outside of this dispute, as unbelievable as it may seem.

 

[ableoneable]

Quite frankly, I think it's an enormous waste of bandwidth to continue to rehash this same issue time and time and time and time again... The enforceability of the award is now in jurisprudence's hands, and everyone's opinions on this topic are pure speculation. People, there's a heck of a lot of other important issues to deal with outside of this dispute, as unbelievable as it may seem.

A waste, as opposed to all the substantive problem solving that can occur on these boards?

Please tell us what these other weightier matters are and how we, of the peoples board, can solve them.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes, the company had the option to challenge the award if they felt that implementing it would cause undue economic hardship. (i.e. the award required a flush bid and massive retraining.)

The company, however, did not object and accepted the award. That chapter of the story is quite closed.

Interesting twist, but that's not what he said or meant. Those documents were included in the lawsuit by the East MEC against ALPA and the West MEC. The case was vacated since neither side has any representational duties at LCC. His testimony was that since the Nic was merely a "bargaining position", that there was no reason for the East side to sue. That's what he said AND meant. It's all right there to read.

That's YOUR lawyer. Oh, that's right, you guys didn't hire him to represent you in the current action. I wonder why not?

 

[nostradamus]

That's YOUR lawyer. Oh, that's right, you guys didn't hire him to represent you in the current action. I wonder why not?

Fruend is busy right now "helping" the Delta pilots, Katz (Us Airways mec rep) is now assisting the Northwest pilots.

Amazing alpa keeps going back to these folks during merger issues.

Are they representing the pilots or alpa?

Delta, NWA pilots lay out arguments over seniority article

"This is like deja vu all over again." Yogi Berra.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, the company had the option to challenge the award if they felt that implementing it would cause undue economic hardship. (i.e. the award required a flush bid and massive retraining.)

The company, however, did not object and accepted the award. That chapter of the story is quite closed.

Did I miss the part where the NC said that Section 22 is closed? If that didn't happen, it's still an open section and, I believe, the union passed their position to the company. The company has not countered, to the best of my knowledge. If the company thinks the Nicolau list should be implemented, why have they not countered with it?

That chapter of the story is FAR from closed.

 

[Metroyet]

That chapter of the story is FAR from closed.

And Achieving a contract that pays better than Mesa Airlines is equally far away as well. Enjoy.

 

[nic4us]

Uh...excuse me. I suggest you watch the entire meeting.

In it, some DELETED BY MODERATOR tries to corner Parker on whether the company believes in binding arbitration or not. It was a feeble attempt, and Parker is way too smart for that DELETED BY MODERATOR. But, the DELETED BY MODERATOR DID, in fact, get Parker to say that the Nicolau was an internal ALPA process and that the company was not a party to the that arbitration. Seems like Parker agrees with what USAPA has been saying all along about the Nic being an internal ALPA process.

But, in the end, the courts will decide. Meantime, Parker is NOT going implement Nicolau just because the DELETED BY MODERATOR keep WHINING. So STOP asking him to do that. He's said more or less the same thing at every meeting in PHX since April. He's certainly a patient man; I would be laughing in your faces by now when you keep bringing the same thing up expecting a different answer.

MOD NOTE: What part of no namecalling didn't you understand?

busdriver,

I actually admire your support of your east brothers and sisters, and normally respect your post, but get a grip.

And for everyone reading this, and argueing what Freunds opinion is, or what Parker meant, just ask WWDPD (what would Doug Parker do) replace ALPA with USAPA in Fruend's quote or busdriver's above and you will see that the Nic is now an internal USAPA process and bargaining position that they have to accept.

The company was indeed not a party to the arbitration, but they accepted the results, and are a party to the TA. USAPA was not a party to the arbitration, but they inherit the results, along with section 29, the TA,etc.

But do not fret, until there is a joint contract there will be no implementation of USAPA's Nic list. Well unless it is determined that negotiations had been cancelled for 1 year, then as per the TA Nic is implemented. Hey I kind of like this replace ALPA with USAPA thing.

Who is entittled to agency shop collection? USAPA
Who represents the pilots in our scope clause? USAPA
Who negotiates on the pilots behalf? USAPA
Who has an arbitrated seniority result known as the Nic as their section 22 position? USAPA

 

[LSS]

A waste, as opposed to all the substantive problem solving that can occur on these boards?

Please tell us what these other weightier matters are and how we, of the peoples board, can solve them.

That's the point... nothing has been resolved, nor are you interested in addressing any other issues that face this pilot group as a whole, that perhaps, you collectively could agree on.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

busdriver,

I actually admire your support of your east brothers and sisters, and normally respect your post, but get a grip.

And for everyone reading this, and argueing what Freunds opinion is, or what Parker meant, just ask WWDPD (what would Doug Parker do) replace ALPA with USAPA in Fruend's quote or busdriver's above and you will see that the Nic is now an internal USAPA process and bargaining position that they have to accept.

The company was indeed not a party to the arbitration, but they accepted the results, and are a party to the TA. USAPA was not a party to the arbitration, but they inherit the results, along with section 29, the TA,etc.

But do not fret, until there is a joint contract there will be no implementation of USAPA's Nic list. Well unless it is determined that negotiations had been cancelled for 1 year, then as per the TA Nic is implemented. Hey I kind of like this replace ALPA with USAPA thing.

Who is entittled to agency shop collection? USAPA
Who represents the pilots in our scope clause? USAPA
Who negotiates on the pilots behalf? USAPA
Who has an arbitrated seniority result known as the Nic as their section 22 position? USAPA

The NIC only exists as an ALPA bargaining position not a function seniority list. USAPA has the right to amend any bargaining position with the company and will do so many times over as they go through bargaining a contract until a final agreement is reached. Sections are passed and modified, typically at every negotiating session.

Unlike ALPA, that was bound by union C & BL's to present the NIC as its "bargaining position", USAPA is bound by its own C & BL's to present DOH with C & R's as its section 22 bargaining position.

A joint contract will replace the TA and can and will modify many parts of it and the two parties under the RLA can meet and discuss and modify any agreement at any time. In the case of Seniority is it simply changing the bargaining position in negotiations of an agreement that is still being negotiated. Now respective contracts and seniority provisions are in effect until the period of separate ops ends.

 

[V1cut]

And Parker even admitted in the video, that any existing agreement can be revisited by the company and union, at any time, as part of the overall process.

Exactly how and why the west doesn't get this, continues to astound me.

(actually, I know full-well "why"...the winning lottery card is hard to give up...)

No winfall, my #@&.

 

[nic4us]

That's the point... nothing has been resolved, nor are you interested in addressing any other issues that face this pilot group as a whole, that perhaps, you collectively could agree on.

LSS,

Other issues are discussed but seldom resolved. For instance there has been a resolution passed supporting paying furloughees medical insurance payments. This thread generally supported that resolution and it passed. Now will come the debate on if the west has to pay the assesment. As an objector, I feel I am not subject to assesments of this kind, but have pledged to pay it anyway.

 

[nic4us]

And Parker even admitted in the video, that any existing agreement can be revisited by the company and union, at any time, as part of the overall process.

Exactly how and why the west doesn't get this, continues to astound me.

(actually, I know full-well "why"...the winning lottery card is hard to give up...)

No winfall, my #@&.

In the future if you do not refer to a decision in which I lost seniority as a winning lottery card, I will not point out that it is you who won, cashed, and probably spent your winning lottery ticket in which you were allowed to keep a job that pays better than a state lottery if you take the annuity option. You will not gain another winning lottery ticket at the expense of the West. The windfall your #@&.

 

[nostradamus]

In the future if you do not refer to a decision in which I lost seniority as a winning lottery card,

In general terms sir, how much seniority did you lose?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

In general terms sir, how much seniority did you lose?

Ask him what the hire dates of the closest East guys above/below him on the list is. He didn't lose a thing. It's ALL in his mind.

That guy at the PHX meeting was saying that he was a 1984 hire and was going to LOSE seniority in a DOH hire. What did he expect? That he would be able to trot over the PHL and be a widebody captain? It sure sounded that way to me.

Those guys need a REALITY CHECK!