US Pilot Labor Thread--ALL Pilot/Union Issues Discussed Here

[LSS]

Of course not. USAPA isn't only about Section 22 of the contract. It's about Section 1 through 30, and a myriad of other issues.

I think every one of us who voted for USAPA understood that this would all end up in court; we just decided it was well worth the price to get rid of ALPA.

I still feel that way and will continue to support USAPA financially and philosophically no matter where these lawsuits land.

Well said!

 

[grits]

Of course not. USAPA isn't only about Section 22 of the contract. It's about Section 1 through 30, and a myriad of other issues.

From the outset, USAPA never said that they could get rid of Nicolau. They did say they would try, among many other things they said they would attempt to accomplish.

Many of us who not directly affected by Nicolau jumped at the chance to support USAPA simply because we were sick of the ALPA B.S. (the imperious, ivory-tower, top-down nonsense that Herndon spewed in ever increasing quantity. There's no way to tell now, but I think if ALPA had simply closed off the spigot of their incessant B.S. rhetoric and tactics during the voting period, they would still be on the property.)

Those who were affected by Nicolau were well aware that USAPA could not guarantee that getting rid of ALPA would mean getting rid of Nicolau. They were also very aware that keeping ALPA meant that Nicolau would be a certainty. I think every one of us who voted for USAPA understood that this would all end up in court; we just decided it was well worth the price to get rid of ALPA.

I still feel that way and will continue to support USAPA financially and philosophically no matter where these lawsuits land.

I will never support USAPA. Some of us have to take a stand on our morals. Integrity does have a meaning to some people. If was forced to give money to an organization, I would rather give to Planned Parenthood than USAPA. Some of us still understand the meaning of standng by your word and principles. I will continue to support AOL no matter how long it takes or how much money I have to spend!

 

[Metroyet]

Im sure your goon squad will publicize their names and start another round of intimidation.

You realize that this myth of intimidation was started by USAPA themselves right? Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true...just like the DOH chant.

To be in "good standing" one would have to be member. USAPA conveniently left out the proper mechanism to bring West pilots into the fold. No one is in good or bad standing because, (until the tyranny of the majority changed the C&BLs) nobody was even a member.


USAPA is a fake union. Go ahead and hide behind the NMB, and your "majority rules" BS if you like, but every single pilot west of the Mississippi knows exactly what USAPA is and what USAPA is for, and who they are really there to advance. Just like a soldier can't use the excuse of " I was just following orders" to commit atrocities, USAPA can't hide behind their rigged, easily manipulated, disenfranchising C&BLs and the perversion of the RLA and it's provisions.

Nobody is fooled.

Now you expect to extort money out of people for all of the brilliant "services" you military junta wants to ram down their throats? What kind of bitter, evil mindset gets off on this? I guess any garden variety playground Bully can answer that one. Fortunately, the best way to tame a bully is to bust him square in the mouth because in the end, All he is is a coward.

See you in Court tough guy.

 

[EastUS]

All he is is a coward.

See you in Court tough guy.

I'm clearly missing much here. Precisely how does "see you in court" relate to being a "tough guy" at any level? As for "All he is is a coward."? "Weyall Pilgrim....That's some mighty ferocious yapping you're doin'...Go ahead; Fill your fiercesome hand with that deadly keyboard"..... 🙄

Grits: "Some of us have to take a stand on our morals. Integrity does have a meaning to some people." No doubt..and it's wonderfully convenient to have one's supposed "morals" and "integrity" established only via the whims of some arbitrator.

A neverending source of amusement....Have fun/Good luck.

 

[V1cut]

Ah...Metroyet, the new tough-guy on the block...

Been lurking for sometime, and my opinion is that the "intimidation" began LONG ago by the West. The crew news is telling...the "in your face" backtalk from the West has been around much longer than what you claim of USAPA. It is easy to see the mindset you westies have played. You pull every play in the book to NOT join, to IGNORE and REFUTE the very existence of a legal CBA on the property for months on end.... You send in "membership applications" with your own conditions and restrictions attached...and you hope to be voted in on that basis, or voted down, in which case you're off the hook...didn't work, did it?...then, you start the propaganda machine in reverse: us westies have no union....we have no reps....nobody comes to see us out here in the desert...we are abandoned and alone....Further, you all "join" your own little "club" (as Boeingboy apparently calls it from what I read...) and pay "dues" to IT, instead of the legal CBA on the property...you have sexy red lanyards...you have "jivin'" badge-backers...(probably a special handshake too...) and you have all argued full-circle rejecting the union, and then whining about being ignored by said union. You guys are nuts.

Cry me a river, ANYbody who has been following this saga has seen EXACTLY what I just described.

It's weak.
It's old.
It's tiring.

Susie may be the first to show you all the light, but she won't be the last.

 

[Phoenix]

See you in Court tough guy.

John "Candy" McLv leads a merry band to court, confident in his direction, with the Nic safely stored in a box atop his car.

 

[V1cut]

I see the west "cultists" have run fresh out of ideas for themselves so I have been "magically" copied and pasted under a new name. I'd ask a moderator to investigate how that is possible, but in any case....it's not only humorous, it's flattering in a westerly diabolical way.

So appropriate, so fitting...so ..."west"


yuk.

 

[V1cut]

"Im a mirror, you're glue..."

" I know I am, but what are you?..."


What a sad level these west pilots are able to sink to....

Didn't know we had "children" flying revenue pax ops at this company...

then again...it is thew west guys we're talking about.

carry on, then.

Copy my every post and change the postername....

(thats brilliant)

 

[V1cut]

Keep it up boys...you make my point for me much better than I can...it becomes self-explanatory to anyone, and everyone.

thank you.

 

[EastUS]

Copy my every post and change the postername....

You may just be overreacting sir..I'm sure that posting another's thoughts under a false name's just another demonstration of "integrity" for the betterment of our education and enlightenment on the concept

 

[Ardenian]

Forward with permission from Mark Minor.
CORRECTED FOR MARK MINOR DUE TO HIS SHORT MEMORY
Subject: [pilotaction] USAPA Travesty

Subject: [pilotaction] JUST PLAIN Travesty – How a few profit on the backs of many

Fellow Pilots -
Just a little note to inform this pilot group about a situation that took place which, I feel, is an absolute abomination and further proof and evidence that our new union, USAPA, does NOT have the best interest of this pilot group at heart - but rather continues to do what is best (or what looks best) for the union, not necessarily for the pilots.
In actuality, this note is a lame attempt to mask the true facts and attempt to engender sympathy for some of the worst crooks in our Airline’s history.

As you well know, both Rich Alter and myself were overtly denied any participation with regards to the new version of USAPA's R&I Committee (despite over 15 years collective experience) because of our past affiliation and support of ALPA during the election campaign.
What Mark doesn’t tell you is how Rick proudly stated at an MEC meeting in 2002 that he had “no idea about investments or retirement accounts when [he] started on this committee.â€

What you probably don't know, is that during all the time since the election (until recently) the new USAPA Negotiating Committee and the new R&I Committee have been utilizing our knowledge and experience on almost a weekly basis with them, of course, taking full credit for everything accomplished. However, the biggest abomination occurred yesterday when Captain Rick Moseley, former R&I Chairman and one of the founders and designers of our current RSP Plan (DC Plan) was denied any participation or appointment to the RSP Investment Committee - despite Rick having the most experience of ANY PILOT ON THE PROPERTY with regards to the current Plan, it's inception and structure, it's staffing, and all of the contractual language associated with the original RSP Plan inception.
What Mark fails to discuss is the reasons for the intense distrust of Rick Mosely - due to his pivotal role in the giveaway of YOUR pension.

Instead, they appointed 3 individuals who have virtually NO EXPERIENCE with our current RSP Plan. and who have come to the old R&I Committee for continued guidance since Day 1 of USAPA's tenure.
What Mark fails to mention is the WHY behind Rick’s active participation in the pension giveaway.
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them who managed the DC plan in the aftermath of the pension giveaway.
ANS: ALPA
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them what the management fees are that ALPA charges the pilots for doing so.
ANS: They won’t
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them who assisted US Airways with the SEC filing giving ALPA an exemption for disclosure of management fees for the DC plan.
ANS: Rick Mosely and Rich Alter
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them why the returns on your DC money was so much lower than your personal investments in the very same Fidelity accounts.
ANS: They’ll claim that it’s apples and oranges – hmmm…is that why our plan choices are such a mixture of funds? So it’s that much more difficult to trace?
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them how much they personally profited from being involved as “on-site managers†of this program.
ANS: They won’t answer, but it must a hell of a lot with the effort they are putting forth to get their hands back on your DC money.
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them where the DC money is currently.
ANS: Out of their control, that’s why they are so desperate to get “involved†again.
Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them why they so fiercely protected the R&I Committee over the years, working hand-in-hand with Pollock and Stephan to block direct oversight and keep anyone else from joining the committee.
ANS: Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. One call to Alter with any of these questions will likely send him into one of his patented “scream-a-thons.†You will be unable to get a word in for twenty minutes or so, and you will likely hear every curse word the human race has invented, and some that he’ll invent just for the occasion.
These guys are as dirty as any ALPA lifer could be.

Gentlemen - this is an absolute travesty and is further proof of USAPA's unwillingness and incompetence with regard to something as important as important as this pilot group's future retirement welfare.
A psychologist would easily recognize this as “displaced blame.â€

Just as much a travesty, is the fact that Rick Moseley was the chief architect of the new Medical Insurance Plan just voted in for the furloughed pilots, as well as the chief advisor to the USAPA NAC for Sections 27 & 28 that were presented during negotiations to the Company. In fact, because of the absence of a proper Professional Negotiator (that USAPA has failed to provide, to date - despite it being an election platform) Rick Moseley was the main presenter/negotiator of these particular contract sections by his engaging all the Company personnel (Glass, Hemenway, Weier, Holdren, Hogg, Bular, and even Skinner) while the USAPA people mostly observed. However.............how many emails were put out acknowledging any participation or valuable input from Rick Moseley? Absolutely none. Once again, it's USAPA taking credit for someone else's work - and then slapping that pilot in the face with their latest childish antics by excluding him from having any input to the very Retirement Plan that he created.
Do you really want to keep reading this self-congratulatory piece of fiction? The go ahead and keep reading. Otherwise, Call Mark or Rick or Rich Alter at home and ask them to explain all the questions raised above.

Quite frankly, having witnessed all of the actions and the apparent complete dysfunction of this new union, I would be personally embarrassed to admit any affiliation with a group of individuals who seem to lack the necessary character and integrity required to be true leaders of men - much less representatives who are responsible for a multimillion dollar retirement Plan, a labor contract, and Health and Welfare benefits for our families. When I look at the USAPA roster and see so many names of highly controversial individuals who were (in my opinion) responsible for many of the poor decisions made on a local level at ALPA - I truly worry about the future welfare of this pilot group.
Respectfully,
Mark Minor
p.s. By the way folks - what your new UNION also fails to mention is that during this latest travesty, they also hired the Jeff White group to help pick investment options........to the tune of $260,000 a year! - a service which we (old R&I) and ALPA National provided for FREE!
P.P.S. Why are these guys so damn anxious to get their hands on our DC money? For FREE, no less?
This stinks to high heaven.

Yep............they certainly have the best interest of the pilots at heart. But hey.........let's not ask the hard questions.........that just wouldn't be right, and it might hurt someone's feelings.
P.P.P.S. I had the unfortunate experience to work closely with these thieves back then. I cannot believe they think our memories are that short.

Changing the subject just a bit, has anyone else seen this? It was going around the websites like lightning.

I know the old AAA R&I Committee was bad, but can anyone help confirm this?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Changing the subject just a bit, has anyone else seen this? It was going around the websites like lightning.

I know the old AAA R&I Committee was bad, but can anyone help confirm this?

Retirement money, union graft, and internet rumors. Gotta love it.

How long will it take before usapa runs out of thumbs to plug the dike?

 

[EastUS]

Some of us still understand the meaning of standng by your word and principles.

Indeed. It might prove somewhat instructive to briefly revisit the true evolution of actual west "principles", "morals" and..let's certainly not forget "integrity" during this post-nic period of discussion.

All quotes shown, unless specifically noted otherewise, are actual postings from west pilots on these boards, and are by no means unique in their nature. I'd be clogging not merely pages but entire books worth of bandwidth with any attempt to put up even the most absurdly arrogant and contempable in their entirety.

After the intially orgasmic cascade of the west triumphal chorus ie: "Booyooshaka!!" "It's OVER..get used to it!" "Final and binding!" "No fences!" "Ho Ho Ho! St Nic is coming to town!"....etc/ad nauseum...Things proceeded forward with west attempts to "sell" the nic via fantasizing the imminent birthing of an unprecedented, world beating and instantly achieved contract...if only the "easties" would just give up 20 years or so apiece of their working lives in favor of the west pilots. When this, amazingly enough, wasn't met with enormous enthusiasm...it turned a bit nastier yet. "You can live on LOA93 forever!!". When it became apparent that the east people, or "sheep" per west postings were seriously pursuing the option of establishing an entirely new union (for MANY reasons exceeding merely the nic fiasco)...things turned increasingly vile. "I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" The fine bouquet of west arrogance and contemptuous dismissal of any and all east concerns couldn't help but be smelled far east of the Ole' Miss herself: "Let me know when the USAPA voting starts because I think this could be over before I even get a chuckle or two from this latest side show. Heck, I heard you guys are hard up for $$$ so if it will give us here on the west a few more laughs we'll even throw in a few bucks to keep the comedy club open."

Needless to say...immediately after the election..in keeping with only the highest possible standards of consistency, and of course..."integrity"...we had: "Alpa lost by 400 votes. the war is on". The adolescently absurd west shenanigans immediately started up with phone sabotage, disgfusting mailings, and have since evolved to such truly noble heights as the jumpseat games in progress out there.

From a wee bit earlier, and perhaps one of the most reasonable postings I then saw from an evidently decent west pilot, who was sensibly concerned for our mutual future:

May 12 2007, 03:47 PM Post #3

"I don't know how you overcame whatever inequities may have occurred from the previous mergers, but we are going to need to see some leadership and some compromise to avoid horrible things....."We can make it work. We can actually win,,, if we do it together!"

EastUS May 12 2007: "I couldn't agree more. Let's get on with the "compromise" thinking if we can. If by "compromise" it's meant that the east just swallows this and grind teeth to nubs ever-after....it won't happen." Wye River came and went..as did Alpa.

Feel competely free to refresh all present's memory again as to the essential elements of "integrity"...."morals"...etc.

 

[EastUS]

Retirement money, union graft, and internet rumors. Gotta love it.

Perhaps it requires excessive mental agility to read and understand that the "union graft" was referencing Alpa's tenure...? 🙄

 

[dariencc]

Changing the subject just a bit, has anyone else seen this? It was going around the websites like lightning.

I know the old AAA R&I Committee was bad, but can anyone help confirm this?

Even after all the Alpa money "management" fiascos we have endured, Mark Minor just can't give up on his self pity and blame deflection. Time to accept change, Mark!

Minor would have us join in bemoaning the loss of the previous members "experience." This focus on experience and lack of attention to such vital considerations as competence, intelligence, education, and success would leave us stuck in the past, Mark, and we are not prepared to go there. The Rick Moseley chaired pension watchdogs were experienced in same manner as the Washington Generals. Show up, thrash about, and lose to the Globetrotters.

Alpa filled positions through cronyism, and we reaped the reward. Only in the Alpa bizarro world would it be controversial to state that the vital R & I Committee should be staffed by highly intelligent and educated people. That is what we have now with Chairman Bud Nevers. The Alpa hack that Mr. Minor speaks so highly of is a borderline illiterate. Harsh words, but true.

Below I have pasted one of this individual's writings. What responsible organization would ever put a person with such obvious deficiencies in charge of the pension plan of thousands of families? Other than Alpo, I mean. :blink:


The piedmont pilots did indeed strike over the 3rd man on the 737

even though the DC-9 was flying at several other AIR LINES

with a 2 man crew. it was 1969 about the time the first man landed

on the moon.The piedmont pilots settled with the 3rd man on board

with the same total crew cost I think.

latter I thank it was Hawaiian flew the 737 with a 2 man crew and

the piedmont pilots singed a contract with the company for a

2 man crew.It's interesting that I was told that National at the

time did not sign the contract as they always had.

the old DC-3 guy's I flew with from piedmont told me this story.

Some of our guy's are 2nd generation here so if this is not the way it

went down feel free to correct me.And by the way I still miss

flying with some of these guy's

Rick Moseley