AFA labor discussion (Work related)

[VAflyGal]

These, and what others said above are all interesting questions. It is a breath of fresh air for someone to say anything other than folks throwing grade school playground insults at one another. I try not to comment too much on those threads because no matter what is said the final outcome is outside of any of the name calling.

One thing strikes me as funny in the flight attendant relm. It is my understanding that with little fanfare that the west has made changes to their negotiators. Is that not interesting that the east can recall their leaders and you union just changes the way they couted the votes. Saying that people that did not vote actually voted against a recall. Then you get this FUD about how you can't change negotiators at this point in time as it would be too disruptive. In fact, you guys were told that the mediator might put you in recess. This is just one little pimple compared to your overalll situation but thought it might be interesting to find out your new leaders opinions on this matter. I know we had talked about the fact that the Philly leader had made a motion to remove Mr. Flores and his sidekick but the new Charlotte leader was not on the same page for some reason. Anyone know the status of this issue? I know there are many flames to be put out, but it would appear that most of them are traced back to your negotiating team. Meanwhile, as was stated above it appears that you company is little by little trying to navigate around the contract you already have. Really no sense negotiating a new contract if you can't hold them to a contract you already have.

standing ovation

 

[Travelpro72]

Terry wanted to vote to remove Flores and Austin but Cathy in CLT wouldn't go along with it. She said she needed her training that your receive after winning the LEC election. What did she need to learn or see that she already didn't when it came to Florea and Austin? Your guess is as good as mine. I do know that with our having the federal mediation there at the table to help push things along would not stand for the removal of Flores without being recessed. I believe the focus should be on closing this contract, send out a tentative agreement for the members to see in road shows and VOTE! Exercise your right and vote the piece of garbage DOWN! With what has been shown already there is nothing else left to see. NO FLIGHT ATTENDANT is going to be satisfied when they see what sections have already been closed coupled with what you'll see as far as vacation, sick, benefits and finally PAY! ! ! ! This baby is going to TANK! And rightfully so. This needs to go back to the drawing board and hashed out to bring a tentative that is of substance for f/a's to take seriously and vote on. Oh and on another topic, good luck with the snapbacks that are due to PHL,CLT and DCA f/a's in January. Ask the pilots how their snapbacks are going.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Terry wanted to vote to remove Flores and Austin but Cathy in CLT wouldn't go along with it. She said she needed her training that your receive after winning the LEC election. What did she need to learn or see that she already didn't when it came to Florea and Austin? Your guess is as good as mine. I do know that with our having the federal mediation there at the table to help push things along would not stand for the removal of Flores without being recessed. I believe the focus should be on closing this contract, send out a tentative agreement for the members to see in road shows and VOTE! Exercise your right and vote the piece of garbage DOWN! With what has been shown already there is nothing else left to see. NO FLIGHT ATTENDANT is going to be satisfied when they see what sections have already been closed coupled with what you'll see as far as vacation, sick, benefits and finally PAY! ! ! ! This baby is going to TANK! And rightfully so. This needs to go back to the drawing board and hashed out to bring a tentative that is of substance for f/a's to take seriously and vote on. Oh and on another topic, good luck with the snapbacks that are due to PHL,CLT and DCA f/a's in January. Ask the pilots how their snapbacks are going.

Travel -

There is not much you have ever posted that I wasn't in total agreement. But I think we night to proceed with caution going forward. This time it is for all the marbles and our quality of life.
There are some really relevant facts to consider WHY removing the MEC president (my best George H. Bush impersonation) "wouldn't be prudent at this juncture" whatever the reasons:

1. The mediator could recess the talks - so everything would essentially grind to a halt and in now way would be good for the group...... ADVANTAGE COMPANY.
2. The membership doesn't want to split from the pilot group. With the impending FAA duty time and duty rest regulations getting ready to change - that makes negotiating really "complicated" at best. With that said the company will drag it's feet on F/A negotiations until the pilot group comes to an agreement settling seniority dispute.......thereby putting the pilots in the hot seat, incurring even more animosity between two labor group that HAVE to work together........ADVANTAGE COMPANY.

Encouraging the flight attendants to split form the pilots (with this management team) would be like agreeing to shoot yourself in the head.......in front of a mirror.
The decision and desire to remain co-paired comes at a considerable cost to the F/A group, economically and the ability for the JNC to negotiate a contract before the majority of us retire. With that said, I still wouldn't split just to procure a contract.

3. Referencing labor disputes, alleged labor work actions, with the sole intent of delaying the process as long as they possibly can for economic reasons ....... ADVANTAGE COMPANY.
4. Ousting the MEC president in the middle of negotiations would just be dangerous. That is why that Ms. Campbell didn't jump on the band wagon with Ms. Graff earlier this year. The more important question:
Who do you replace him with? And what are their qualifications? It's not like any of the closed sections can be reopened and renegotiated - and still no tentative after six years.......and if the mediator forces us to recess.........HUGE ADVANTAGE COMPANY.
5. The ONE thing that has to be preserved above everything economic is the "SCOPE" language provisions that we enjoy in the EAST contract. The East has it, the WEST doesn't (and whether they grasp it or not) they are the ones that need it the most. That would essentially allow the spreadsheet jockey's to outsource or split up the airline as they see fit without the protections of minimum fleet counts. Can you say outsourced to REPUBLIC? .......COLOSSAL ADVANTAGE COMPANY.

Let's just say for argument the scope protection is some how eliminated from the contract by the company dangling a $20 dollar an hour raise to the flight attendant group. If that happens and could pass - half would be on the streets inside a year. If you don't think the desert dream team wouldn't do this - then you do so at your own peril.

6. These are the same guys that no don't feel the need to provide airport parking for crew members displaced by base closures, and now overcrowded employee lots thanks to TSA and food service employees.....now you have to pay to come to work. Save a buck at ANY cost. ......ADVANTAGE COMPANY.

We have invested six years of our lives into this dysfunctional merger and contract negotiations - let's try to expedite that process by keeping the pressure on the Joint Negotiating Committee to put up a contract for ratification as expeditiously as possible.

I agree with you - to date what HAS actually been negotiated is beyond pathetic - but they have to finish ALL sections before the can put it out for a vote. So let's help the JNC do just that Then we all can decide one way or another. All you have to do is vote "NO" if it does not meet your expectations. I can tell you definitely that no love loss exists between the CLT LEC and the MEC President. I guarantee the CLT LEC will hold the JNC feet to the fire as long as negotiations continue.

This contract in it's current form IS garbage. So let the JNC bring it to a vote - and simply vote your conscious. But for goodness sakes let's get something out for a vote. That's when you recall the JNC and the MEC. What's the saying? Give them enough rope to hang themselves. Whatever form the eventual "ratified" contract takes - I can guarantee with certainty that it won't be anything that most of us have hoped for or meet all of our expectations. That is just a fact that most of us fail to realize.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for holding out (especially for the return on our investment into this company by the EAST) for a fair and decent contract, but the reality is: what we feel that we have coming our way - is never going to arrive.

You can thank the events of 9-11, the culture of AWA and this management team (or lack thereof), the economy, and really stupid people that continue to elect politicians that vote against their own economic means and are blindly anti-labor and middle class. All these factors don't help the flight attendants or the pilots obtain a contract. This is now a country of unemployed that would all do of our jobs for far less just for benefits - and the company knows it. That is the (redundant) trump card. What we have to do is reach a compromise between a livable wage vs. work rules and job protections. Much like everyone else - I wanted both.
But that's not going to happen.

I, more than anyone, want back what back what we sacrificed to keep the company afloat, and me saying that I despise this current management team would be putting it mildly, but sadly I am also a realist. It's time for most of us to start taking a real HARD look at other labor contracts and educate yourself. Aside from the ever popular reference to SWA's pay scale. There are a lot of differences between US and SWA.SWA Management see their employees as assets and pays and treats them well - but they do work hard for what they earn. Their wages and time at the top is not indefinite. Just as ours wasn't. When I was hired we had bar none the best pilot and flight attendant contracts in the industry. Today it's SWA. Tomorrow? Who knows.
Some things DAL has is great - but some things DAL has is terrible. Same holds true for all the airlines. It's a balance.

The best thing all of us can do right regarding a contract- is be patient but not complacent, keep things in perspective but remain involved and educated in the process, but have realistic expectations.


Just my thoughts - 🙂

GI

 

[galley princess]

I hope that Terri and the other LECs with brains and conscience hammer these two quiet but vital parts of our existing contract.

Scope: absolutely not negotiable. See TWA and American airlines.

Bidsheet: huge negotiating tool as well as frankly too expensive for the company to buy from us. This has managed to stay for decades, don't drop it now.

At any rate, if we get to "self help" everyone will see its value.

 

[Travelpro72]

Glucose, I can tell you right now Terry WILL NOT go for this contract. Just knowing her style, personality and AFA experience I just can't see it happening. Now, as for wasting time follow me here for a minute if you will. Using the old house building analogy if you have a contractor that has already screwed up your foundation and many things along the way, upon discovery WHY would you let him continue only to sue him and have to reverse the incorrect work? How much time will that take? I DO NOT believe it will take any more time than removing Flores, getting recessed and regrouping to finish the mess, have someone new there ALREADY for the NO vote, and dig right in without having to wait for an election for replacement. Either way you look at it it's gonna take the same amount of time. I'd like to vote this turd down today if I could but we can't. We have two at the table right now that SHOULD NOT be there. One has a problem and the other has stage coach thinking. I don't like being held hostage anymore than the next person but something has to give. Oh and as for the FAA regs coming out soon for the pilots, even Michael in the local 70 office said, "Flight attendants won't be walking but RUNNING from the pilots." Just look at the FAA website at some of the proposed language. I have no desire to split but I'm not working under such insane language. NO THANKS! ! !

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Glucose, I can tell you right now Terry WILL NOT go for this contract. Just knowing her style, personality and AFA experience I just can't see it happening. Now, as for wasting time follow me here for a minute if you will. Using the old house building analogy if you have a contractor that has already screwed up your foundation and many things along the way, upon discovery WHY would you let him continue only to sue him and have to reverse the incorrect work? How much time will that take? I DO NOT believe it will take any more time than removing Flores, getting recessed and regrouping to finish the mess, have someone new there ALREADY for the NO vote, and dig right in without having to wait for an election for replacement. Either way you look at it it's gonna take the same amount of time. I'd like to vote this turd down today if I could but we can't. We have two at the table right now that SHOULD NOT be there. One has a problem and the other has stage coach thinking. I don't like being held hostage anymore than the next person but something has to give. Oh and as for the FAA regs coming out soon for the pilots, even Michael in the local 70 office said, "Flight attendants won't be walking but RUNNING from the pilots." Just look at the FAA website at some of the proposed language. I have no desire to split but I'm not working under such insane language. NO THANKS! ! !

1000 percent. YOU got everything I was trying to convey.
Just let them finish and put it up - so it can very decidedly voted it down - then vote the entire JNC out and move forward.
But in the mean time it's time for the LECs to start lining up some QUALIFIED individuals that are serious on carrying out and making happen what is in the flight attendants best interest.

Did you know that the company is distorting the intent of the language in the contract and claiming a loophole whereas to AVOID paying airport parking for thousand of flight attendants that are either non based crew members or no longer based at their home domicile? Everyone affected should sign up for parking immediately in their base domicile whether they are going to use it or not. Now the company wants us to pay to park just to be able to come to work? Then make them pay for parking so you have he option to bring you car to base if the need ever suits you.

Did you also know they are again trying to weasel out of paying "last trip of the month" claims because the flights were cancelled due to WX.......during a hurricane? I guess the same thing happens during a HABOOB.

Now they are try to rewrite and interpret reserve rules.....ENOUGH. This is management team is the worst in this airlines history with regard to violating contract provisions.

I for one am really getting tired of hearing the obligatory "it's covered in the new contract".
So put this tentative out for a vote - so it can be voted down.
Then let's get serious about self help and achieving a REALcontract.

Same goes for the pilot group. Settle the seniority dispute. It's not going to be NIC or DOH, but something in between -work it out. It time to man up and take control of this situation and quit suing one another. That is just so low budget and juvenile ......especially on the company's part. No wonder this airline is the laughing stock of the industry.

Far as separating goes - when the F/As find out that you can only work 20 days and are only able to get 80 hours the hard way - your right they will be running. But not unless there is an incentive (money) involved to make it happen. Tempe bring your check book......better yet bring CASH because your no longer credible.

It's time for everyone to get serious and to man up.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Same goes for the pilot group. Settle the seniority dispute.

We can only work for our own self interest.

If the pilots are handcuffed it's not our problem.

They will be handcuffed no matter what happens with us.

It's coming and it's their problem.

Move on.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

We can only work for our own self interest.
Move on.

Unfortunately that's what has gotten US in the mess - not to mention the single driving force that motivates this management team.
More like C.Y.A.

 

[songbirdstew]

I believe the focus should be on closing this contract, send out a tentative agreement for the members to see in road shows and VOTE! Exercise your right and vote the piece of garbage DOWN! With what has been shown already there is nothing else left to see. NO FLIGHT ATTENDANT is going to be satisfied when they see what sections have already been closed coupled with what you'll see as far as vacation, sick, benefits and finally PAY! ! ! ! This baby is going to TANK! And rightfully so. This needs to go back to the drawing board and hashed out to bring a tentative that is of substance for f/a's to take seriously and vote on.

As sad as it is to say this...there are no guarantees. Don't be so sure that "This baby is going to tank"--crappy contracts have been voted in in the past due to people fearing that if they don't vote yes they will lose thier jobs. With the economy as bad as it is, some folks may see that $20 dangling in front of them and say yes. I for one will not be one of them.

 

[galley princess]

Gucose Intolerant' timestamp='1316208330' post='830237']
1000 percent. YOU got everything I was trying to convey.
Just let them finish and put it up - so it can very decidedly voted it down - then vote the entire JNC out and move forward.
But in the mean time it's time for the LECs to start lining up some QUALIFIED individuals that are serious on carrying out and making happen what is in the flight attendants best interest.

Did you know that the company is distorting the intent of the language in the contract and claiming a loophole whereas to AVOID paying airport parking for thousand of flight attendants that are either non based crew members or no longer based at their home domicile? Everyone affected should sign up for parking immediately in their base domicile whether they are going to use it or not. Now the company wants us to pay to park just to be able to come to work? Then make them pay for parking so you have he option to bring you car to base if the need ever suits you.

Did you also know they are again trying to weasel out of paying "last trip of the month" claims because the flights were cancelled due to WX.......during a hurricane? I guess the same thing happens during a HABOOB.

Now they are try to rewrite and interpret reserve rules.....ENOUGH. This is management team is the worst in this airlines history with regard to violating contract provisions.

I for one am really getting tired of hearing the obligatory "it's covered in the new contract".
So put this tentative out for a vote - so it can be voted down.
Then let's get serious about self help and achieving a REALcontract.

Same goes for the pilot group. Settle the seniority dispute. It's not going to be NIC or DOH, but something in between -work it out. It time to man up and take control of this situation and quit suing one another. That is just so low budget and juvenile ......especially on the company's part. No wonder this airline is the laughing stock of the industry.

Far as separating goes - when the F/As find out that you can only work 20 days and are only able to get 80 hours the hard way - your right they will be running. But not unless there is an incentive (money) involved to make it happen. Tempe bring your check book......better yet bring CASH because your no longer credible.

It's time for everyone to get serious and to man up.
[/quote]


The only reason I give a rat's ### about being paired with the pilots is precisely this nonsense.

You can negotiate to be king of the world, if both sides do not comply with the contract then what's the point.

Being paired with the pilots makes it more difficult for the company to violate our contract at will. Not foolproof, but better than the alternative.

We aren't Delta, United or American, where they still seem to "get" the idea of not completely alienating their workforce. These craven buzzards circle non stop looking for weakness and ways to take advantage. When faced with this, the only thing to do is build as best of a defense as possible. All prey can do is try to outsmart the buzzards, attacking back isn't an option most of the time.

It may be that there will be a "no brainer" moment that will decide the whole pairing with the pilot thing, but I haven't seen one yet.

Absolutely, there will be a contingent of weak hearted that will vote for money and then wail when they realize what they gave up for it, all I can do is try to point out this nonsense as I see it. What is hugely disappointing is that our own negotiators won't point it out for us. They are on track to release a tentative that they KNOW is inferior, and they'll try to sell it!

It is extremely disheartening to know that if we aren't careful we could very well end up with something that is inferior to what we have NOW and what we have now is abysmal.

Money you can get, work rules, once gone are gone forever.

 

[Travelpro72]

All I'm gonna say about splitting is this. What do you think the flight attendant group is going to do when they change the pilot regs and the pilots can now fly up to 18 hours in one day? Top that off with their able to fly like that for a few days then a mandatory 30 hours off in base? Does anyone honestly believe that will fly with the f/a group? I hardly doubt it as the majority of this airline are commuters. Hell even beside the commuters what f/a would want to fly like that even if they lived in base. Trust me when I tell you that this change to the pilots regs WILL NOT be a friend or handy companion to the f/a. See the flight attendants splitting, negotiating their own regs/rest and moving along. If the rest/regs hashed out by the JNC/Company aren't to the f/a's liking they don't fly. No more hiding behind another group. There are twice as many f/a's as pilots and we need to stand on our own two feet, negotiate our own contract and FIGHT to gain as much as we can. No more giving away. If and when the pilots get moving with their contract do you think the company isn't going to gain anything from them in bargaining? Of course they will and YOU as a f/a will fiind yourself "mescrewed" once again. Take that to the bank.

 

[missthe727]

All I'm gonna say about splitting is this. What do you think the flight attendant group is going to do when they change the pilot regs and the pilots can now fly up to 18 hours in one day? Top that off with their able to fly like that for a few days then a mandatory 30 hours off in base? Does anyone honestly believe that will fly with the f/a group? I hardly doubt it as the majority of this airline are commuters. Hell even beside the commuters what f/a would want to fly like that even if they lived in base. Trust me when I tell you that this change to the pilots regs WILL NOT be a friend or handy companion to the f/a. See the flight attendants splitting, negotiating their own regs/rest and moving along. If the rest/regs hashed out by the JNC/Company aren't to the f/a's liking they don't fly. No more hiding behind another group. There are twice as many f/a's as pilots and we need to stand on our own two feet, negotiate our own contract and FIGHT to gain as much as we can. No more giving away. If and when the pilots get moving with their contract do you think the company isn't going to gain anything from them in bargaining? Of course they will and YOU as a f/a will fiind yourself "mescrewed" once again. Take that to the bank.

Great post. The day of the me-too clause benfitting the F/A group is long gone. We need to negotiate our own rigs away from them. Then if folks don't like what they see in the T/A away from the pilots they can just vote no.

 

[galley princess]

Great post. The day of the me-too clause benfitting the F/A group is long gone. We need to negotiate our own rigs away from them. Then if folks don't like what they see in the T/A away from the pilots they can just vote no.

When I see AFA put in safeguards to ensure compliance on the company's part that will actually stick, I'll say sayonara to linkage.

So far, all I see is the company trying to find ways around what we have now, giving them an easier way to separate a f/a from a crew and fly him/her ragged while saying "so grieve it" isn't something that I will vote for.

 

[Travelpro72]

The flight attendant negotiating on their own behalf can and should be done. If you don't have faith in who is negotiating your new rest/regs then you remove them. It will happen soon enough. This contract will hopefully be voted down, Mike and Carol removed, new blood who can think outside of the box and one step ahead of the company brought in. That is how you ensure you have the protections you need. Not hiding behind a bunch of pilots who at the face of a gun will give EVERYTHING away but the kitchen sink. History speaks for itself. Someone feel free to prove me wrong and make a list up here of the goods and bads of the "metoo". I'm sure the list of bads will be quite long if done honestly.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The time and advantage to negotiate away the "me too" has unfortunately been legislated away.

The pilots are the pilots - they are of no help to us. They are a negative at this point. We can do just as well on our own.

We should have moved sooner seeing what was on the horizon.

It has become a liability. If you want less flexibility in your schedule then keep pushing to keep the "me too". If you aren't a commuter just remember PIT never thought they would be commuters and CLT was on the block when Doug went after DL.

As far as not trusting the membership to vote on a contract - I want a say in what contract I get.

This contract should be a short term contract.

This is not the most important vote, the vote after this - the next merger contract is more important.

This should be a short term contract.