AFA labor discussion (Work related)

[Travelpro72]

I have heard the horror stories of when Piedmont flew seperate from their pilots and how terrible it was. On the other hand you hear about just how wonderful and a dream of an airline Piedmont was before the merger. Which was it? The pilots have given away some seriously important items that flight attendants lost due to "metoo". The list of bad outweighs the list of goods when you really think about it so keep that in mind when you don't want to split. The ability is there to negotiate rest and regs but I believe the problem is most flight attendants do not have faith in their JNC to write concrete language with no loop holes for the company to play games. Most comments you hear about splitting is incomplete crews in irregular ops, longer days and overnight rest times. The new pilot rest and regs are not as centered around how many hours of rest you receive on an overnight as it is hours of service and increased utilization. This change is not going to be something that will benefit a flight attendant in any way. No sense really saying much more about it until the change is made public in November and everyone gets to see it with the look of 😱

 

[apollo]

1995 america west afa uniform picture.

 

[apollo]

Inflight picture of america west flight attendant, 1995, their last contract.

 

[missthe727]

I have heard the horror stories of when Piedmont flew seperate from their pilots and how terrible it was. On the other hand you hear about just how wonderful and a dream of an airline Piedmont was before the merger. Which was it? The pilots have given away some seriously important items that flight attendants lost due to "metoo". The list of bad outweighs the list of goods when you really think about it so keep that in mind when you don't want to split. The ability is there to negotiate rest and regs but I believe the problem is most flight attendants do not have faith in their JNC to write concrete language with no loop holes for the company to play games. Most comments you hear about splitting is incomplete crews in irregular ops, longer days and overnight rest times. The new pilot rest and regs are not as centered around how many hours of rest you receive on an overnight as it is hours of service and increased utilization. This change is not going to be something that will benefit a flight attendant in any way. No sense really saying much more about it until the change is made public in November and everyone gets to see it with the look of 😱

To me flying separate from the pilots at Piedmont was not such a big deal. The people it mattered to were the ones doinking their pilot boyfriends at the hotel on the RON. That being said, during the flying day, if the front end crew was late or F/As were late to a flight then crews waited for each other or they subbed it out with another crew. Yes there were days I ran to catch up to an aircraft but I'd be moving much slower these days.
Back then we had much better duty rigs to protect us if there was a scheduling snafu. I used to do three 29 hour four days, get 87 hours in 12 days and be home with my family for the other 18. The company supported us and we were proud to work there...then came the US merger.........

 

[galley princess]

When talking about splitting from the pilots, most f/as aren't really concerned about the actual co-pairing, but the protection that it often offers. Most of us would be fine by ourselves and work with a new system, but someone pointed out to me one big fact in the negotiation of a split. The company wants to take work rules for free or little cost. They don't want to pay what the give-back is worth. (The fact that we're even discussing give-backs is offensive, but that's another post).

The co-pairing is a valuable work rule. It's worth a lot of money to the company, hence their wish to get rid of it. We're the only airline that has it, and certainly it has good and bad points, the me-too has cost us as much as it has gained, but consider that we get international pay on domestic routes because of a me-too. That will disappear.

The loss of the rigs was a biggie, but I would argue that the rigs would have disappeared anyway, we were one of the last airlines to have them, and yes, we lost them via a me-too. It isn't the actual work-rule that I want to preserve, rather I would just like f/as to realize that this contract, as abysmal as it is, has retained often arcane seeming work rules, precisely because they are valuable and US has never offered enough of a raise for us to give them up.

Same thing with the bidsheet and our bid system. Love or hate 'em, they're ours and they are valuable. You don't just give them away. Just because you don't use or care about Aunt Sally's vintage jaguar doesn't me you trade it in for a Camry and a car payment. You sell it for what it is worth.

If the company gets their way, they will eliminate the me-too, the bidsheet, our bid system and our ability to pick positions on the a/c. In return we get pref bid, no post bid modification chance on our month and we have to rely on whatever language AFA can get to protect us in irregular ops. Oh, and they might give you a $10 raise, in return for give-backs worth a ton more.

Finally, the elimination of me-too and the bidsheet removes specfic advantages in contract negotiations. Imagine a CHAOS scenario. You have three CHAOS f/as willing to get off in Tel Aviv, thus stranding the a/c. Post elimination me-too, Junior Mary and Joe get woken up 9+15 after arriving in MUC and are told to deadhead to Tel Aviv to work it after their 9+15. They get 9+15 after arriving in Tel Aviv (about 7+30 after getting to the hotel, getting back to the a/c) and the flight goes out late, but it goes out. A CHAOS flight, but not as chaotic as it could be. My numbers might be off, but you get the idea.

It's a lousy economy, and f/as are all over the spectrum financially. Let's face it, a strike vote may happen, but a lot will get squeegy before walking off of an a/c. That's what we'll face post bid sheet elimination, about 7-9 years from now, contract length depending. What makes anyone think labor will be stronger then? Right now, you have the ability to just fly your block and it starts messing with the company after about three days. No one has left an a/c, no one's afraid. Talk about not recognizing the value of what you have.

If you're WEST, these are all theoretical to you, and probably of no value, but guess what? In the event of a strike, it will be recognized that WEST's ability to sustain job risking actions is limited, we KNOW that you have a history and proof of punitive management and work rules. This time, the bulk of the pain will be performed by the EAST, lose these work rules, and everybody gets to put their jobs on the line.

But the negotiating committe and certain f/as want to just hand this away.

If it happens, well, I guess we're as dumb as they think we are.

Ask yourself, is this my last contract? If it isn't, think very carefully about what you want to give up.

 

[Travelpro72]

Sorry but I want the bidsheet GONE like the wind. Sure it has a high price on it but NEGOTIATE BETTER. It basically serves no purpose in the new contract and only benefits a few. While we shouldn't have to give away anything that value could be creatively spread out in other areas of the contract to benefit ALL flight attendants. But noooooo. The scenario you mention about the striking f/a's in TLV? Well NEGOTIATE BETTER. As for the current int'l pay on domestic....The int'l pay you currently receive will be gone regardless with the new pilot rules as they willl be able to fly longer and will no longer need an IRO. No IRO no int'l pay. It all comes down to NEGOTIATING concrete language. Look at the JNC and the language as twisted as Lombard Street they have created and it's no wonder flight attendants have no faith in them creating language that protects. Flight attendants are worried they will lose their job, not be able to feed themselves so a strike vote will come back with a low result. The results won't be posted by the union as they won't want the company to see it and people like the ones who shake their heads in agreement when Michelle Bachmann talks will vote YES and we'll be HAD! Take it from Debbie. This will be the future unless people get involved, know the goods being sold and hold their JNC accountable and vote this POS contract DOWN! ! ! !

 

[galley princess]

Sorry but I want the bidsheet GONE like the wind. Sure it has a high price on it but NEGOTIATE BETTER. It basically serves no purpose in the new contract and only benefits a few. While we shouldn't have to give away anything that value could be creatively spread out in other areas of the contract to benefit ALL flight attendants. But noooooo. The scenario you mention about the striking f/a's in TLV? Well NEGOTIATE BETTER. As for the current int'l pay on domestic....The int'l pay you currently receive will be gone regardless with the new pilot rules as they willl be able to fly longer and will no longer need an IRO. No IRO no int'l pay. It all comes down to NEGOTIATING concrete language. Look at the JNC and the language as twisted as Lombard Street they have created and it's no wonder flight attendants have no faith in them creating language that protects. Flight attendants are worried they will lose their job, not be able to feed themselves so a strike vote will come back with a low result. The results won't be posted by the union as they won't want the company to see it and people like the ones who shake their heads in agreement when Michelle Bachmann talks will vote YES and we'll be HAD! Take it from Debbie. This will be the future unless people get involved, know the goods being sold and hold their JNC accountable and vote this POS contract DOWN! ! ! !

Okay. We agree that this thing needs to be voted down.

Where I disagree is where I get cynical and you have hope. If I am reading you right, you want to vote it down and get new negotiators.

You want these new not CA and not MF negotiators to get the company to start over and trash the nonsense that they've formulated the last five years.

You want them be prescient enough to predict every "screw the f/a scenario" that they can think up to counter the give back of a pilot/ flight attendant pairing that while imperfect, has done the job the last thirty years. You maintain that as soon as the new FAA rules are released all protections cease via Me too. Is the pilot agreement absent scheduling work rules? (I am really asking this, because I don't know.) The FAA rules are / will be the minimum, and if the pilots do not have this minimum, whatever it is, yes they'll enact- whatever the agreement, but, if the pilots have superior to the new rules, doesn't their agreement stand until they get a new one? And, why would they negotiate less than what they have now? If they do, nothing says we can't negotiate an "if -then" to prevent us from taking a hit, and if that's unlikely to you, I reference your faith in us negotiating hard rules to protect us on our own.

You want the new negotiators to obtain a sched system superior to what we have now, while somehow preserving the flexibility that US f/as have gotten used to, not to mention the negotiating tool that it is, and also get the money that it is as well as the pilot pairing is worth , plus the raise that we are due anyway. That's a big check from a group that hangs onto pennies while leaking dimes.

Gee Travel, I would really like your scenario, but I think that US f/as just aren't that powerful to get to that. Best case scenario we vote it down and try to amend what we have, fix the reserve system and get a decent raise. If the company really wants a different sched system and separation, it needs to come with a great big payout, we deserve no less, but I just don't see it happening. Honestly, IMHO, the only practical way you'll see that kind of change is via another merger, and this one has gone SO well.

We can agree to disagree, I respect your opinion. I just hope that f/as realize what is on the line here. This TA defaults us into Pref bid. whatever you think about it, that's a huge change. Even with it agreed to in that TA , and the savings that it provides the company as soon as it is enacted, they're refusing to consider a decent raise. This TA goes thru and US f/as will have literally GAVE away valuable work rules for nothing. AGAIN.

 

[PHLfa88]

Sorry but I want the bidsheet GONE like the wind. Sure it has a high price on it but NEGOTIATE BETTER. It basically serves no purpose in the new contract and only benefits a few. While we shouldn't have to give away anything that value could be creatively spread out in other areas of the contract to benefit ALL flight attendants. But noooooo. The scenario you mention about the striking f/a's in TLV? Well NEGOTIATE BETTER. As for the current int'l pay on domestic....The int'l pay you currently receive will be gone regardless with the new pilot rules as they willl be able to fly longer and will no longer need an IRO. No IRO no int'l pay. It all comes down to NEGOTIATING concrete language. Look at the JNC and the language as twisted as Lombard Street they have created and it's no wonder flight attendants have no faith in them creating language that protects. Flight attendants are worried they will lose their job, not be able to feed themselves so a strike vote will come back with a low result. The results won't be posted by the union as they won't want the company to see it and people like the ones who shake their heads in agreement when Michelle Bachmann talks will vote YES and we'll be HAD! Take it from Debbie. This will be the future unless people get involved, know the goods being sold and hold their JNC accountable and vote this POS contract DOWN! ! ! !

I will vote NO for Any Give backs..And the Reserve needs to be negociated a hellava better than it is in it's current state!

Thumbs Down For Me!! :down: :down: :down:

 

[Travelpro72]

Galley I'll try to cover a few things here. I'm a hopeful but also a reallist. I in no way believe flight attendants will get everything their hearts desire. I don't believe that Mike and Carol are stupid but out of touch with what the group wants. He refuses to listen (reserve system, holiday touch, AIL close 2days out etc) I could go on and on. Do I believe there is someone out there who could do better? Absolutely! Who? Not a clue. That all said, I do believe the group can revamp sections once the contract is voted down and sections opened. If it's found to be unsatisfactory to the flight attendants then yes it's back to the drawing board. In a situation where a section is open the company doesn't "call the shots" if you will. Both sides need to meet in the middle somewhere. This group IS NOT going to give up anything large in one area to improve another. It's not concessionary and isn't gonna happen. Give and take is one thing but asking the group to accept what we've seen so far is a non starter. Now as for the pilots. When the new rules come out in November (God willing) the new rest and regs will most likely be implemented in stages. Regardless of what the US pilots may have negotiated I'm quite certain a new FAR or pilot reg change will overshadow their current language. I mean FAA law is law for pilot flying. THAT is the big problem the company is going to face. I can't give specifics as to what the changes will be but doubt it will be in favor of the flight attendants sticking with the pilots. The group is going to have to step up and stand behind their own contract just like every other group on this property and stop relying on a group with a backbone as stiff as jello. I'm sorry but we have been shafted left and right and continue to be MONTHLY. Every time "company flying" is shifted base to base and you lose your block look no further than your pilot to the left and right. The time moves but the actual FLYING does not. There is no way to get around that without allowing the pilots to fight their own fight and try our hardest to gain whatever improvements are to be had. Just my point of view.

 

[whizbang]

Sorry but I want the bidsheet GONE like the wind. Sure it has a high price on it but NEGOTIATE BETTER. It basically serves no purpose in the new contract and only benefits a few. While we shouldn't have to give away anything that value could be creatively spread out in other areas of the contract to benefit ALL flight attendants. But noooooo. The scenario you mention about the striking f/a's in TLV? Well NEGOTIATE BETTER. As for the current int'l pay on domestic....The int'l pay you currently receive will be gone regardless with the new pilot rules as they willl be able to fly longer and will no longer need an IRO. No IRO no int'l pay. It all comes down to NEGOTIATING concrete language. Look at the JNC and the language as twisted as Lombard Street they have created and it's no wonder flight attendants have no faith in them creating language that protects. Flight attendants are worried they will lose their job, not be able to feed themselves so a strike vote will come back with a low result. The results won't be posted by the union as they won't want the company to see it and people like the ones who shake their heads in agreement when Michelle Bachmann talks will vote YES and we'll be HAD! Take it from Debbie. This will be the future unless people get involved, know the goods being sold and hold their JNC accountable and vote this POS contract DOWN! ! ! !

 

[whizbang]

I was also Piedmont. We did not have better rigs than the pilots. I worked many redeyes where the pilots got off in Clt and I did a TPA turn and made less than they did. We stayed in different hotels and were treated poorly. When you called scheduling with a reroute you were not treated fairly. I dont really want to split from the pilots for those reasons but that being said, it will depend on how the new FAA regs work. I am also not willing to give up the bidsheet. Inorder to makeitwork for me I ride daily to get what I want. They can stuff Pref bidding where the sun doesnt shine. This first draft of the contract will never pass.what a waste of time and money. By the time we finally get it and vote it done and then redo it and vote again, your looking at another year or so. What a savings for Doug and co.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

To me flying separate from the pilots at Piedmont was not such a big deal. The people it mattered to were the ones doinking their pilot boyfriends at the hotel on the RON. That being said, during the flying day, if the front end crew was late or F/As were late to a flight then crews waited for each other or they subbed it out with another crew. Yes there were days I ran to catch up to an aircraft but I'd be moving much slower these days.
Back then we had much better duty rigs to protect us if there was a scheduling snafu. I used to do three 29 hour four days, get 87 hours in 12 days and be home with my family for the other 18. The company supported us and we were proud to work there...then came the US merger.........

Then you got a pay increase, better benefits, common crews, and duty rigs and DOH.
What were the f/a duty rigs at PAI again? If your going to use "revisionist history" atleast get some of it right..

 

[Travelpro72]

I was also Piedmont. We did not have better rigs than the pilots. I worked many redeyes where the pilots got off in Clt and I did a TPA turn and made less than they did. We stayed in different hotels and were treated poorly. When you called scheduling with a reroute you were not treated fairly. I dont really want to split from the pilots for those reasons but that being said, it will depend on how the new FAA regs work. I am also not willing to give up the bidsheet. Inorder to makeitwork for me I ride daily to get what I want. They can stuff Pref bidding where the sun doesnt shine. This first draft of the contract will never pass.what a waste of time and money. By the time we finally get it and vote it done and then redo it and vote again, your looking at another year or so. What a savings for Doug and co.

The troubles you describe with splitting are very valid points and that is where the f/a group would have to ensure protections were set in stone. As for pref bid, even if the contract is voted down and the scheduling section is opened and tweaked a bit Pref Bid isn't going anywhere. The pref bid language was technically written a long time ago but never implemented. I understand you don't want to get rid of the bidsheet but may I ask your seniority? The bidsheet will close TWO DAYS out so if you are a b/h that uses that as a commuting tool you will be OUT OF LUCK! ! ! ! If you have a four day on the 737 with a 5am checkin you will either get rid of it via the ETB or it's yours. Well you'd be able to use the AIL if you were the top 5%. And again keep in mind it closes two days out, not running at 12noon as it currently does. As for Savings for Doug, the sections closed CANNOT be reopened even if we replaced anyone currently on the JNC panel. Only after a NO vote can a section be opened. Keep this all in mind.

 

[galley princess]

The troubles you describe with splitting are very valid points and that is where the f/a group would have to ensure protections were set in stone. As for pref bid, even if the contract is voted down and the scheduling section is opened and tweaked a bit Pref Bid isn't going anywhere. The pref bid language was technically written a long time ago but never implemented. I understand you don't want to get rid of the bidsheet but may I ask your seniority? The bidsheet will close TWO DAYS out so if you are a b/h that uses that as a commuting tool you will be OUT OF LUCK! ! ! ! If you have a four day on the 737 with a 5am checkin you will either get rid of it via the ETB or it's yours. Well you'd be able to use the AIL if you were the top 5%. And again keep in mind it closes two days out, not running at 12noon as it currently does. As for Savings for Doug, the sections closed CANNOT be reopened even if we replaced anyone currently on the JNC panel. Only after a NO vote can a section be opened. Keep this all in mind.

With regard to Pref Bid, that system was the product of a bankruptcy contract. It is also for whatever reason the precious brain-child of CA. I see no reason why it can't go the way of this TA, which is down and gone. Just because it was agreed to via this abysmal bankruptcy contract and not implemented is not the FA's fault. The company snoozed, they lose.

There are a couple of reasons that I am not sold on Pref bid.
1. It goes around your vacation. If you're junior sometimes you WANT the trips in your block to drop out so you can sap other ones or just take the time and maneuver the system with the bidsheet. GONE.
2. Forget weekends, holidays off. Whatever chance you might have had bidding a horrendous block simply because it had Christmas off will now be the property of Sally senior to you who just imput that she wouldn't work Christmas. She may not have touched your nasty block, but she'll get it via Pref Bid. Your ability to get a holiday off GONE.
3. One bid and it's yours. There may be an ETB or trade system, but nothing as flexible as the bidsheet. Flexibility- GONE
4. I think it's going to result in furloughs. We get efficient and the junior get laid off.
5. Don't like the galley position? Too bad, pref bid doesn't allow for bidding positions. Tailoring your bid like you do now-GONE.

Following this post will be lots of people saying that they loved the system at Defunk airlines, and it will give you more scheduling control yada yada. They have a right to their opinion. I LIKE our bid system, and US isn't offering me enough money to give it up, so they don't get it and I don't lose it. I'm not senior. I have waited a long time to be able to get a modicum of flexibility in my schedule. I know that the reserves are desperate and they think that this will help. I disagree. I think we need to solve the real problem, which is that reserve needs to be liveable, and the senior need some kind of benefit program so they can retire. THAT would solve the problem.

Trav is right, f/as need to really think about the threads that hold their lives together and what a drastically different contract is going to do to those threads.

 

[SparrowHawk]

A few pages back a F/A suggested that the F/A's begin writing everything up. Several points if I may.

NEVER as in NEVER EVER post that kind of suggestion on-line. Assume that the company reads this board and others and protect yourself accordingly.

What this person did is essentially expose themselves to severe discipline and provided the company with ammunition to build a case against the entire union. Not very smart in the middle of a contract negotiation.

In general terms if it sounds like it might be a bad idea to post the thought?? DON'T

Fly Safe