US Pilot Labor Thread--ALL Pilot/Union Issues Discussed Here

[EastUS]

Believe me when I say that level heads are thinking way outside the box searching for a solution.

So to answere your question, yes we can agree on this point. I for one do not wish to see ALPA return in its present form.

OK..Last thoughts for the moment here. Upon reviewing some of your earlier posts...I find myself scratching my head a bit.

nic4us Posted on: Jul 24 2008, 11:41 PM

"busdriver,

had the arbitrated award gone date of hire, I could have lived with that. what I cannot live with is after 20 years continuos service you deciding it is fair that a pilot furloughed at the time of the merger,with less LOS, gets to be senior to me."

"George's list is not unfair, unjust..."

nic4us Posted on: Jun 12 2008, 10:47 AM"Finally, you are correct there is no way of telling what would have happened minus the merger."

If I'm getting this at all right..and I may simply be indeed being "simple" herein...You could have lived with DOH, but were reasonably concerned with any with far less length of service taking seniority from you, especially ones that suffered furloughed status. Is there actually any scenario within USAPA's list and conditions that would inflict that upon you? Ummm..wouldn't the nic place west pilots with FAR less length of service well above a host of east pilots with vastly greater amounts of time worked? Wouldn't the nic, in actual fact, set those pilots up for potential furlough well before many with much lower, even single-digit years worked out west? Is it not the case that, under nic, those currently suffering furloughs out west would leapfrog over people with far more LOS in the east? That notion appears to have greatly upset you personally, when your own above observations on DOH were spoken, and I heartilly agree with valuing LOS myself. So...It'd be just peachy to have people with negligable LOS in the west..remain on the property while their "brethren" and "sisters" out east, with vastly greater amounts of worked years...are furloughed via the "fairness" of nic? You certainly don't want any with less LOS to displace you..but it's great, "fair"/etc, ad nauseum..for any west pilot to do exactly that to an east counterpart? Am I getting this right?.

You evidently feel that Alpa was a failure, fully worthy of replacement, but enthusiastically embrace it's nic product as being just fine, fair, carved in stone, etc?

I'm afraid that at least one of us is seriously confused here....

 

[V1cut]

I doubt we'll see this judge find that the company must furlough by the Nic...because the company has an ironclad case in that we are in seperate ops..ergo, no Nic. I expect we'll see some other solution than that, and I happen to agree that it's wrong for 3rd list guys still to fly out east while more senior west guys go out.

But the remedy the west seeks is unlikely.

The new video still shows the same old drama...trying to pin Parker down about the Nic...it ain't gonna happen.

 

[nostradamus]

The company may have to live by the Nic now if it is determined that joint contract talks were indeed cancelled by the East Mec's refusal to attend joint contract negotiations.

Your group left negotiations at Wye river, Us Airways mec was working on a compromise.

Wye river, west mec blunder, click here

 

[ableoneable]

Your group left negotiations at Wye river, Us Airways mec was working on a compromise.

Wye river, west mec blunder, click here

The Wye River east MEC "compromise" is essentially the current USAPA DOH list with the same weak ass conditions and restrictions.

This is the same list that the east tried to present during the first day of negotiations, the first day of arbitration, the last day of arbitration, at all negotiation sessions after arbitration and now with the company during negotiations. Non starter then, non starter now.

The east never negotiated anything, they just presented the same concept over and over at every juncture hoping that it would eventually become acceptable.

The west MEC would have had to have been brain dead to give in at Wye River.

Contrary to the BS spewed by UTurn none of the west MEC or LEC members thought that Wye River was anything but an ALPA national waste of time to try and give the east just "one more chance" for the fourth time. All of the west ALPA reps saw the Wye River "compromise" for what it was; more of the same. No-one thought that it was worth their time.

The only reason there was a Wye River is because John Prater was doing everything he could to try and give the east a shot at a do-over.

Assuming USAir survives we will eventually be working under a joint contract and that means the Nicolau list is going to one day be the seniority list.

Keep spinning.

 

[EastUS]

the Nicolau list is going to one day be the seniority list.

Any possibility of a "friendly" but substantial wager? 🙄

"Keep spinning."

 

[V1cut]

Maybe. It looks like Parker doesn't think so either, based on his answer to the "binding arbitration" fellow on the video.

"..that was an ALPA/ALPA arbitration...that union got thrown out...."

we'll see, but it surely isn't as cut and dry as you all think, or it would've happened by now.

 

[nostradamus]

The west MEC would have had to have been brain dead to give in at Wye River.

Keep spinning.

The spin on the link was by a group of your west pilots. I am not spinning, I just quoted a group of your pilots called U Turn.

 

[ableoneable]

The only thing not cut and dry is the timing of the lawsuit.

The most conservative legal opinion is that the west will have to wait for a new contract to be ratified before the matter is ripe for legal action.

However, even the very conservative lawyers, who say the case will not be ripe until this point, have been unanimous in their opinion that USAPA is completely bound by their predecessor's arbitration and the Nicolou list is as close to a legal certainty as one can get.

 

[ableoneable]

The spin on the link was by a group of your west pilots. I am not spinning, I just quoted a group of your pilots called U Turn.

Not exactly, your beliefs paralell their story and you present it as proof of your rectitude.

I know who writes UTurn and these individuals have definitive axes to grind. I am aware of their personal agenda and I know what went on at Wye River.

Take a look at the "compromise" the east offered there and let me know how it differs from the east's initial arbitration position.

If you really believe that the east was interested in negotiation there should be some daylight between the two positions, but there is not.

 

[JoeLurker]

Not exactly, your beliefs paralell their story and you present it as proof of your rectitude.

I know who writes UTurn and these individuals have definitive axes to grind. I am aware of their personal agenda and I know what went on at Wye River.

Take a look at the "compromise" the east offered there and let me know how it differs from the east's initial arbitration position.

If you really believe that the east was interested in negotiation there should be some daylight between the two positions, but there is not.

Just a little reminder of the ACTUAL ALPA position for the WEST guys:

AWAPPA’s own attorney, Jeff Freund, said the Nicolau Award: “is in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept…but which merely sets out ALPA’s bargaining position to be presented to the company...

 

[ableoneable]

Just a little reminder of the ACTUAL ALPA position for the WEST guys:

AWAPPA’s own attorney, Jeff Freund, said the Nicolau Award: “is in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept…but which merely sets out ALPA’s bargaining position to be presented to the company...

Of course the company has accepted the list. Therefore they have not objected to the arbitrated ruling.

You keep trying to take this one comment out of context while you really need to read Freund's whole position.

Freund by the way, is one of the attorneys who refers to the Nicolau list as "as close to a legal certainty as exists under the law."

 

[nostradamus]

Of course the company has accepted the list. Therefore they have not objected to the arbitrated ruling.

Quote from a recent pilot meeting with west pilots and Mr. Doug Parker

west pilot. "the company accepted the seniority list."

Mr Parker correcting the statement made by the pilot. "We have a list."

 

[nostradamus]

Freund by the way, is one of the attorneys who refers to the Nicolau list as "as close to a legal certainty as exists under the law."

If this were a horseshoe throwing contest, Mr Freund would be correct.

 

[ableoneable]

If this were a horseshoe throwing contest, Mr Freund would be correct.

It's the east that keeps bringing up Mr. Freund. His comments are continualy taken out of context and sighted as proof that even the west lawyer thinks that USAPA can walk away from the arbitrated award.

I was simply putting them back in context.

If you keep citing Mr. Freund I must assume that you are swayed by his opinion so I included is opinion of the legal validity of the Nicolau award.

An opinion, by the way, that is shared by every lawyer in the western world save Lee Seeham.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

It's the east that keeps bringing up Mr. Freund. His comments are continualy taken out of context and sighted as proof that even the west lawyer thinks that USAPA can walk away from the arbitrated award.

I was simply putting them back in context.

If you keep citing Mr. Freund I must assume that you are swayed by his opinion so I included is opinion of the legal validity of the Nicolau award.

An opinion, by the way, that is shared by every lawyer in the western world save Lee Seeham.

I hope you're correct and the rest of the world agrees with Mr. Freund, who said that the Nic award was merely ALPA's "bargaining position", and that the company is in no way bound to accept it.

Read it here:
http://www.bigjetcity.com/index.php/articl...nts_-_ALPA_Suit

Document #3, about halfway down.